Finn  0:42  
Hello and welcome to The Ether. Today is Friday, December 17th, 2021. This is a two part Cephii's Space. First part is a Nexus chat with Tundra. And then the second part is more of an AMA and just kind of general degen chat. You know how he do. Let's take a listen.

Cephii  1:02  
Nexus protocol. So if you have any specific questions for Tundra you can sort of find him on Twitter as well. Or just follow Nexus Protocol. Hey, bud, what's up? 

Speaker 1  1:14  
Hey, Cephii. How you doing, dude? 

Cephii  1:17  
Good, good. Good.

Speaker 1  1:18  
A quick question man. As we started going into, I mean, I just recently started using the Gateway Pylon and I put a little bit of money on the Psi liquid staking, whatever, that little pool that opened up late with a good APR. And then I actually got into the WHALE tokens through the Pylon Gateway as well. And I figured that I was going to get the tokens. By the time I get the tokens, I did one two year vault and one one year vault, or six month vault, just to test it out. And I think the thing is, by the time you get the tokens, all the volatility from the large... And not in particularly White Whale, but you know that the price is a little more established by then, I'm assuming. But I'm kind of leaning towards more on investing in the protocols, and kind of prioritizing that over trying to learn too much about degen strategies and trying to understand the protocols and invest on them little longer term. So then that will mean that I'm looking for the possible appreciation of the tokens, right. And we're talking about from a year from now, when the projects are a little more establish or something. Is that? Is that the approach? As far as... What kind of an incremental on the value of the tokens are we talking about, in general, when we invest in this project on a mid to longer time range? You know, what I mean? How much can I expect Psi to grow as far as the consolidation of the protocols and stuff like that?

Cephii  2:59  
Yeah, these things vary quite a lot in that each protocol has different styles of token emission schedules, they have... Each of them have different amounts of venture capital investors, early investors who may have timeframes at which they might exit. So there's a lot of... It's really tough to sort that out. What I like about Pylon Gateway, and how it works is you're essentially, you're getting the benefits of just some of the extra yield. And they lock you up early, and... Here's Tundra now, let me get him on. The Pylon Gateway yields, and we can talk to Tundra about that right now, is I think they'll give you a little bit of a metric in terms of what you're getting for your money in UST value. What's less clear, obviously, is how much long term appreciation any protocol, specifically, has and whether it's worth it to you or not to lock up UST on Pylon is sort of a tough choice. As long as you can extract your UST at the end and essentially have that risk free investing, you basically are subject primarily to the opportunity cost of what your money would have done on Anchor just earning UST or the opportunity... Or the fact that just your UST, otherwise, is subject to traditional inflation. So these are the kinds of... When you think longer term those the two things that probably matter. Hey, Tundra, how are you?

Speaker 1  4:42  
Thanks, man. 

Tundra  4:42  
Hey, man, good. Good. How are you?

Cephii  4:44  
Good, good. Let me mute little man there for a second so that we have a clear channel here. Yeah, we just wanted to kind of catch up on just general ideas of what Nexus Protocol is doing and maybe you can fill us in on a little bit of roadmap kinds of things before we have deeper questions.

Tundra  5:06  
Sure, yeah. Well, first of all, appreciate you reaching out and getting this set up. I see that you, you basically... What are you up to, like, two? You do two of these every other day. 

Cephii  5:14  
[chucles] Yeah, I'm doing a fair number of them. Yeah, whenever I have a little bit of time.

Tundra  5:19  
Feels like that. So and I'm a big, I'm a big fan of that. And I think it's really cool what you've done, and you've kind of built a community around these Twitter Spaces. So, kudos to you on that. It's been cool to see. And I also... When I just joined, I heard some conversation about Pylon Pools. So maybe I can add in a couple things there, because that's one of the things that we've done recently I've been kind of telling people about, but I think probably could use a little bit better explanation. Specifically, I'm talking about the liquid Pylon Pools.

Cephii  5:29  
Yeah, folks, while we're talking, you wanna jump onto your phones and check it out, you basically go to Pylon Gateway site, and then you can go to the section with Nexus there, and you can hit participate. And you'll see the various details there while we're talking if, you need to.

Tundra  6:15  
Yeah, so the concept itself is fairly simple. I think the thing that messes with people is the name of the token is like, Psi24bUST, or something like that. I don't remember the full name of the token, but it's something ridiculous. Full transparency, we didn't come up with that name ourself, that was the name that was programmed into the Pylon back-end, and they were insistent that we kept it that way. But the concept is fairly straightforward. So user goes to Pylon Gateway, like you just said, and deposits UST. But the difference here is you actually receive a ledger token, in return for your deposit of UST, which essentially, reflects your ownership stake of that pool. And we, our team, the Nexus team, actually seeded liquidity for that pool on TerraSwap with Psi. And so what that means is, you don't actually have to wait the full 24 months or 12 months, or however long to exit if you wanted to. So let's say that you want to... I think the APR right now is like 70%. Let's say you have some UST sitting around, and you wouldn't mind earning some side tokens to the tune of 70% APR for like a week or two, but then you have some plans for it, or you just want flexibility, you don't necessarily want to lock up your UST for that long. What you can do with the ledger token is you can actually bring that over to TerraSwap, and actually trade it for Psi. And then... Or UST, which is just another step, right, and then you trade Psi to UST. 

Tundra  8:01  
So it's actually liquid. I don't know, the exact amount of liquidity oscillates in the pool, but we seeded it with, I want to say a million dollars, or close to a million dollars is what we see that the the pool with, initially. So if you're moving around significant funds, make sure to check slippage. Slippage is what's gonna eat at you. But if you're moving around $10,000, $20,000, and you do it in a couple of transactions, slippage is going to be pretty low. And meanwhile, you're actually benefiting the protocol itself by participating in those pools, because half of that UST, which is being created is actually going into the community Treasury itself, which is going to be later used for protocol and liquidity. So it's a good way to not only earn, a healthy yield for yourself in a pretty liquid way. But you're actually also improving the situation of protocol owned liquidity for Nexus.

Cephii  9:15  
So let me ask you real quick, so if I am in that... So I'm using that pool right now, so I threw $10k in that in UST in there, and am I sort of doing the right or wrong thing by just sort of holding it in there for two years?

Tundra  9:31  
You can do that if you want to, but let's say that you don't want to, let's say you wanted to... Today you're like, "I'd like that $10k back to go do something else with," you can go over to TerraSwap and trade the ledger token for roughly $10k worth of Psi and then trade the Psi into UST.

Cephii  9:50  
But then the yield... So then the Psi yield that I have achieved in the interim, that gets released in the... When and how, I guess. Is that immediate, also? Or... 

Tundra  10:00  
Yeah, the Psi yield is yours on an ongoing basis. So that's that should be... Yeah, that should be claimable. But once you sell the ledger token, you no longer receive any of the yield that you had from being in the pool.

Cephii  10:17  
I got you. Now, is it necessary to claim the ledger token on that site right now? Or...

Tundra  10:23  
No.

Cephii  10:23  
You can just leave it there too, it doesn't make any difference?

Tundra  10:26  
Yeah, no, you don't need to claim it, you just receive it from depositing money into the pool. 

Cephii  10:31  
Okay. 

Tundra  10:31  
I think actually, and I'm speaking from personal experience, I didn't actually fully understand it. So one thing I wanted to clear up, as we were kind of getting into this call is, I'm not the brains of the operation.  I'm kind of like our communications person, and I help with community stuff, and I write everything that you've read about Nexus, and stuff like that. But the people who actually build and design the vaults are other people on our team. 

Cephii  11:04  
Got it.

Tundra  11:05  
So anyway, I didn't fully understand the concept of these liquid pools, until I actually did the full process. So until I actually went to Pylon, deposited some money, and then took the ledger token over the TerraSwap, I guess, just went over to TerraSwap, and then traded the ledger token for Psi or UST. It didn't fully click for me. But once I did that, I was like, "Oh, I understand. It's liquid, I don't have to just sit in here for two years if I don't want to."

Cephii  11:33  
So, there was a mentioned by some people have some arb opportunity here between, I guess, the liquid token and Psi or something. I'm not sure I fully understand what they were saying, though. I don't know if you got that whole concept or not?

Tundra  11:48  
Yeah. So I can try to explain it. But this is one of those things I'm not super familiar with myself. So yeah, so the Psi... Let me think about this.

Cephii  12:05  
And if you're not super clear on it, don't worry about it. Because I wasn't sure. I wasn't sure I understood it after I read some people's comments about it either. So unless... It's almost like you'd have to have traded it and kinda got a feel for it. And you're breaking up a little bit too, by the way. Sorry.

Tundra  12:21  
Okay. I just said, I'll need to follow up with you about the arbitrage opportunity, because I'm not super clear on it myself.

Cephii  12:30  
Sure, sure. So that's the Pylon thing. On a separate note, obviously the bLuna vaults have been working pretty smoothly, I've used them quite a bit. I like the flexibility of, some utility for my bonded LUNA while I'm sitting on it. And I think that's helpful. So the version two, version three releases for Nexus, I had... A couple of things. One was, what are those? And are there designs being built into some of these things to bring, perhaps, value back to the Psi token holder along the way, too?

Tundra  13:20  
Yeah. For sure. So I was kind of thinking, "What do I want to talk about on this call?" And so I'll kind of just word vomit, some of the things that are on my mind. And then we can kind of take the conversation whichever way you want to go. And if any, if anyone in the audience has questions about any of the things I'm saying, happy to have conversations with you guys as well. So I think, well, Nexus has been live, the first vaults of Nexus have been live for a month and a half now. So we launched the 31st of October. It's the 17th of December. So yeah, about a month and a half is how long we've been live for. And I think in that amount of time, I've definitely heard feedback from the community. And I think in addition to kind of talking about what we're working on next, and we can get there, I'd like to maybe spend a minute to talk about the feedback that we've heard thus far, and also kind of how I'm thinking, maybe some changes might be coming down the road. 

Tundra  14:35  
So two things that I've heard and I'm definitely open to your suggestion, your feedback on this as well. But one is, people are concerned about the yield distribution being in the native tokens Psi, because Psi is hyper volatile, and there's a high emissions rate, which is really... It's the same emissions rate as all the protocols have been so far, but still. So that's been one of the main pieces of feedback is, "I sure would like to receive my yield in USD, or in the native asset itself," right. So LUNA to LUNA, or ETH to ETH. So that's been one thing. And then I think the other main piece of feedback that I've heard is, "I like to be a degenerate. And I like to use my borrowed UST to do whatever." And frankly, it's not necessarily a degenerate thing to do to use your borrowed UST to go and yield farm or do whatever you want with it. Maybe you want to buy an NFT, which I've done personally. So I think those are probably the two main pieces of feedback that we've heard about our product thus far. People are kind of hesitant to receive yield in Psi. And people want to be able to use their borrowed funds to do whatever they want with it. So I think the first thing, the first point of that is the receiving yield in Psi. So we've been having conversations internally on our side about, well, somebody is going to make an auto compounder, that's going to convert the Psi yield, back into LUNA. And we actually, the reason why we stood up these liquidity pools for nAssets, so like nLuna, and nETH, and Psi, is so that we could actually do the compound in, we could actually eventually do this compound in for the sake of growth and TVL for the protocol. 

Tundra  16:52  
So you know, for that reason, and for the reason that somebody is going to do this, I think what we'll do is raise a governance proposal soon, which will basically... It will allow the community to vote on if the yield from the vaults should actually just be autocompounded back into more, nLuna and nETH, which is going to apply more buying pressure to Psi as the TVL grows. But then that Psi is going to be converted back into nLuna and nETH. So from a user's perspective, the potential use of Nexus and the vaults that we've created might change in a pretty fundamental way from, again, from a user's perspective. Now, what we're doing doesn't really change at all, but how the user receives their yield might change depending on the outcome of the governance vote. And if we ended up doing that, it would be an optional thing, where people could still opt to receive Psi as yield, but then they would also be able to just autocompound their LUNA and ETH.

Cephii  18:08  
One thing I've been a bit of a fan of is if you go to Spectrum, which is an autocompounder, I like how it gives you the option of receiving your rewards in different ways. One of those would be, just autostake to governance. So for example, if I want a specific portion of Psi token, it just goes right to my governance stake without any button pushing, none of that. So they're just autocompounding that without having to do a bunch of activities. The other thing would be, I love the idea of anything that sort of autocompounds the asset that I'm putting in the vault, because then with each... Let's say, for example, let's say it autocompounds your nLuna, for example, then the beauty of that would be that as it autocompounds, its ability to generate yield in the vault is simultaneously rising, so the whole thing is just a big spinning flywheel.

Tundra  19:11  
And I think the way I'm thinking about that is, and just in general, kind of one of my overarching ideas is like, taking feedback, and build products that people want to use, people are like, "Oh, yeah, this is a no brainer." Yeah, I think a lot of the reason why Anchor has been so successful is they have created something that is just such a no brainer for people to use, right? 

Cephii  19:42  
Yeah, exactly. 

Tundra  19:43  
And it's because of the way that they've designed it and the medium of yield that they chose to do and everything about it, it's great,

Cephii  19:53  
Although I would say that, it's not as obvious, besides governance, like what the... They haven't build too much utility into the base token, and it's hard to say how to create that. But in Psi, it'd be interesting to sort of maybe create reasons to hold it maybe. somehow to... Maybe some of the transactional fees of the network or something go into the token somehow to build value capture.

Tundra  20:27  
Yeah, but what they're doing is their treasury is growing. So the value capture to ANC might not appear super obvious right now, but their treasury and their assets are growing. Now, this latest thing that happened with the price oracle, that might set them back a little bit, I don't know how that where that's all landed in terms of how the users are going to be compensated. And if that's being paid out, in ANC tokens, or from the treasury, from UST. But regardless, Anchor itself is actually profitable. And it's growing its treasury. And overtime, that allows it to do different interesting things like slowing down emissions significantly. And I don't know what they have planned, but when they have a... It's basically operating a profitable protocol at the moment. And it allows them to do a lot of different interesting things. So I think what they've opted to do is build something that people want to use, get a lot of people to use it, generate profitability from that, and then slowly work in what you're talking about, value capture and stuff like that. But that's sort of secondary to build a product that people love to use, and make it profitable.

Cephii  22:02  
Yeah, yeah, I'm sure. But you know, even after that, it's almost to me... It seems to me to make sense, sort of like you did with the 24 month token system, it makes sense to me to have sort of built in, even if it's artificial, holding pressure for the Psi token, where basically, the longer you hold it, maybe the better your APY overall comes in. Let's say, for example, even in governance, maybe there's like long term governance, so people that are hardcore Psi token holders who are like, "You know what, I want to leave this here for a year or more," or something like that. You actually differentiate those people a little bit. Whereas a lot of the governance token holdings, besides yeah, obviously, having more token to vote with and whatnot. But beyond that, there's not a lot that typically benefits the longer term versus the shorter term person in those places. So what some people will do is they'll take their various governance tokens, and they'll park them there for a while, but then like, if they see LUNA's price drop or something, sometimes they might use that as their liquid pool to just simply go pay off their loan, or they'll use it to, you know, whatever. The point is that the longer term holder is not benefited by that kind of behavior, and sort of harmed by that, to some extent.

Tundra  23:30  
Yeah, definitely. I think I have some ideas around some different models, but they're not... It's not mature enough to necessarily present to you or the community as something that would for sure happen, but I'm happy to share an idea that I've thought about. So are you familiar with the bond issuance program, that Olympus DAO kind of created?

Cephii  23:59  
A little bit, but maybe describe so that the group would know what that more or less entails.

Tundra  24:05  
Okay, sure. So what Olympus Dow did, which kind of has brought about this whole DeFi 2.0 movement is they've leveraged the most boring financial instrument that has ever existed, the bond, to solve one of the biggest predominant issues for DeFi protocols, which is mercenary capital and rental of liquidity, basically. And so it's a lot of words, but basically what Olympus DAO created, was they let users bring liquidity pool tokens and native assets like ETH, or like stable coins, and buy tokens directly from the protocol itself at some discount that would mature over some period of time. And by doing this Olympus has built up basically a pool of their own liquidity so that they don't need to incentivize their liquidity pool anymore with emissions and then tokens and stuff like that. So Nexus is going to be doing the same thing through a bond issuance program, but... Oh actually, I kind of forgot where I was going with this initially, Cephii. Can you remind me again, what we're just talking about? 

Cephii  25:43  
Oh, well, the issue of ultimately, value capture for Psi token, how to figure that...

Tundra  25:49  
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So in order to get people to do this bond issuance program in the beginning, the APR, the discount rate needs to be high, because you as a user are taking on additional risk. And it should be like, the first people that provide these assets, they should get the biggest discount rate, and then it should be dynamic, it should sort of fall. The discount rate should fall the more assets are being added in. So one of the ideas that I had was, users who staked their tokens in governance, they accumulate some type of additional ledger token. And that ledger token gives people a claim to participate in the early in the earliest round of the bond issuance program, where the discount rate is the highest, like APR is like 100%, or something like that. And so that would be a way... The longer that and the more tokens that you stake in governance for longer, the higher your share would be of the bond issuance program at the very beginning, where the discount rate is the highest. And that would be a way to provide value to people for stakeing the governance token for a longer period of time. But not totally sure if we're gonna be able to do that, because we might be working, we may be working with Olympus to actually conduct this bond issuance program. It's not 100% confirmed yet, so I guess that's a little bit of alpha leak. But if if that is the case, then we have limited flexibility in terms of how we implement it. But if we do it ourselves, you know, we might have more flexibility. So that's what I can say about that for now.

Cephii  27:45  
Let me get Will on for a question here. He go ahead, Will. Maybe? [chuckle] It's okay. He'll hop on, I guess, if he gets back on. But yeah, maybe switch to a slightly different gear here. So your v2 and v3 sort of projects on your protocol, or... What are those going to be about, more or less?

Tundra  28:10  
So I think, what we've already kind of published to the community is ETH Nexus, MIR Delta neutral, optimal mode, these are kind of the three things that are slotted, scheduled for Q1. I think Q1 is going to be a really big quarter for us. But I think in addition to that, there's like a number of other vault or product ideas, which we haven't really talked to the community about. But I think maybe last week, we mentioned that we're going to be posting a forum that's going to basically contain all of the different ideas and strategies that we we want to build. Some of it is limited by what pieces of infrastructure are in place, and what we have access to. So there are vault ideas, product ideas that we want to build, but they rely on Mars to actually implement. So in this forum, we'll outline what we want to build. And we're not we're not really waiting for Mars and these other primitives to be built to start working on them. We're already working on them so that when Mars and Prism launch, we can actually just go straight into our vault development process. So, there's a lot that we've been kind of ideating on behind the scenes also with some of our community members who we've been actually pretty blown away by the extent by which random people in the community want to be involved in have ideas and stuff like that. So if you're one of those people listening, and you have ideas about something that Nexus could build and you want to be a part of it, please find us on Discord. And let us know what your ideas and we'd love to talk to you about it. We can set up a phone call and go over in detail if you have something interesting on your mind.

Cephii  30:19  
I think Will's back on. Will, a question? I don't know if he's sort of breaking in and out but or GraviDAO?

Will  30:27  
Yeah, I can't. My mic works but my audio doesn't. I will figure it out. Sorry. 

Cephii  30:33  
Okay, no problem.

GraviDAO  30:35  
Right, I'd like to circle back just a little bit to the bonds. And you mentioned working with Olympus DAO. We know Leserve DAO will also be doing bonds as a service to DAOs or projects. Is there any reason why you'd go with Olympus instead?

Tundra  30:57  
That's a good question. No, I don't know that there's any specific reason... Well, maybe one reason I would just say is Olympus has a track record of managing a bond issuance program successfully. So like, including setting interest rates, setting the maturity term, and having it all be sustainable and work well. Olympus has a direct experience doing that. So that's not necessarily saying that Leserve couldn't be successful. It's just that Olympus has a track record of being successful in that. 

GraviDAO  31:36  
Good, thanks.

Cephii  31:39  
Yeah Tundra, so as far as brainstorming theories, there are a variety of... Well, first off, let me ask you this. So the development team that you guys have in terms of the user interface, and all the launch of your projects, you seem to be pretty successful. Everything seems to be executed and functioning well. Do you find that your technical team is, in the in the grand spectrum of programming experts, do you find them to be super capable of doing some pretty insane things? Or do they... Like moderate level? Where's their background? Before I start pitching theories. [chuckle]

Tundra  32:24  
So our lead developer is maybe one of five people on Earth who are at his level, when it comes to like Rust development, specifically, smart contract development. So we have probably one of the more technically advanced teams on Terra. I would get up in front of you guys and say that I think we have probably the best team building on Terra. So yeah, I mean, basically, what's your idea? Because I'm happy to relay it.

Cephii  32:59  
They don't have a technical prowess issue, necessarily. Okay, got it. 

Tundra  33:02  
No. [chuckle]

Cephii  33:03  
I didn't want to get too exotic with ideas without getting some sense of whether it's even feasible. So there's a variety of things I've been talking to different protocols about and my sensibility is is that I think any protocols should have some use for UST depositors, it should have some utility for people that want to simply deposit their LUNA and maybe utilize the yield off of LUNA or even, in your case, bLuna. And, ultimately, the ability to basically acquire more LUNA is on the minds of a lot of people, and jumping through a bunch of hoops to get more LUNA, like you said before, trading different tokens and doing this and that. To me it's almost like, you create solutions that are simple enough to, let's say, acquire more LUNA, but then also set up in that some sort of fee structure in the background that, you're doing some automations and such, but it's accruing value, or maybe paid for, somehow, with the side token so that you wind up with a value mechanism baked into that whole scheme. Some of the examples... Like, I'll give you an example that I gave to Kujira. I was like, "Alright, look, I want to be able to push a button, and if anyone's familiar with Kujira, I want to be able to have a systematic way that it will automatically put in a series of limit orders or discount orders. And I can scale them up in such a way that it's like a button push and I can get all these things to fill all those orders." 

Cephii  34:56  
And then, it essentially automates that process for people so that if they don't understand how to enter those orders, it sort of helps them do so. And by making it easier to set up orders and making it easier for people to push a button and make a buck, you're going to get more participation, like you said. On Nexus' side, examples of things that I would be interested in seeing, as an example, would be there's not really any sort of on-chain sort of... There's not even an on-chain DCA bought for buying LUNA, for example. So like you said, similar to how if you were to make your vault where bLuna... Right now you you're sending it into Anchor Earn making some UST, you're delivering that in the form of Psi tokens, it would also be pretty cool, like you said, to just deliver that in the form of autocompounding bLuna and create a virtuous loop. But other options would be simple things like DCA systems, like let's say, Nexus version four simply has a button you push and you park an amount of UST on there, and it takes the yield and buys you LUNA. Some of the easiest, most simplest concepts have not been executed on Terra yet. And I'd like to see simpler investing strategies be deployed. Does that make sense? 

Cephii  36:24  
One of the spaces that we just did an hour ago or two hours ago was one regarding KuCoin's Infinity Bot. So it might be a neat little thing to go and look at what they did. And it's a fairly simple programming project to create that, but it looks like a super effective way to improve your yield. And what KuCoin does is every trade that gets executed, there's a fee in the background, obviously. And if we did something similar to that on Terra, like on Nexus Protocol, or anyone could do it, any protocol could establish this sort of thing. But it takes reasonably robust programming understanding to set it all up properly. My thought is, you could create products like that, like a LUNA infinity grid bot, and you just park UST on there, set a couple of parameters, fire and forget. And now you're getting either more LUNA off of your aUST yield, or you're just simply getting it by parking a specific amount of UST in there, and you get the output from it. So these are the kinds of projects I don't see on-chain very much, in any chain, really. And you see centralized exchanges doing this stuff. I think there's only few of these types of products and bots that are really consistently profitable, that an idiot could use. You push a button, and now you're making money. I think those are the ones I'd like to see built more so than complex things. But that was sort of what my sense was, is the yield redirection off of bLuna, let's say. Let's say I don't... 'Cause sometimes I don't want to go to UST right, I don't want to borrow off my bLUNA, get ust park it. Sometimes I just want to be able to park bonded LUNA because I sometimes use that to go borrow off of it, right. So I want to be able to bring it over to Nexus, park it in there and then do something different with the yield perhaps that might be more attractive than just the staking yield. So, you yield redirect that, so then you still get the LUNA exposure, you're not taking on any extra LUNA risk, but then you're redirecting those yields to do neat things with it. 

Cephii  38:40  
And one of the options, of course, is using Staters LunaX token, which basically will autocompound, which essentially takes your yields and dollar cost average into LUNA, right, that's essentially what it's doing. But the infinity bot would actually, in my view, make more money than autostaking. And that would be a really cool thing to bring on-chain. And furthermore, if you wrapped that into a smart contract where you don't actually earn anything until you exit, meaning unlike KuCoin, where you create literally a dozen taxable events every day, or whatever, the cool thing about doing it on-chain in a smart contract is, is that all your taxable events will be happening in the background, and it doesn't actually affect... Those as individual trades, right?

Tundra  39:34  
I think it's really interesting. I don't know about this infinity bot that you're referring to, but I know of... I have a friend who I think has used it and he actually mentioned it to me. So I'll go have a look at that. And I think it's an interesting idea.

Cephii  39:48  
Play with it, but really all it does is, it just basically for every 1% LUNA's price goes up, or any coin for that matter, it sells a 1% worth, and then if the price dips down 1%, it just buys it back at that level. And it just keeps doing that all the way up to, you know, forever. And basically, systematically is always selling a little bit, and then sell enough to buy back more as the price drops. And the goal of the bot is to keep you at exactly the same amount of LUNA that you had when you started. So it's not really like shuffling too much. What it's doing though, is the yield output is coming to you in Tether in that particular example. And on chain we can do it even more aggressively where the yield output actually buys you even more LUNA, perhaps, or maybe buys you Psi token or whatever. You could create some different permutations of this where it somehow value captures to the Psi token also, which would be pretty fascinating. 

Tundra  40:51  
Okay, that's a very cool, I like the idea.

Cephii  40:54  
But yeah. But Nexus as a protocol, conceptually though, the goal of your various components... Is the whole protocol supposed to be a series of apps that are similar, necessarily? Are they... There can be just kind of whatever in them? What's the vision of the project?

Tundra  41:16  
So I think, yeah, it's a good question. For me, I think about Nexus as kind of like you're in finance, but better. And basically, what that is, is kind of like a hive mind coming together to build products that, like exactly what you just described, things that we can't do off-chain, or maybe that we can do off-chain, but not in an optimized way, and we just can't do ourselves because we don't have access to the right resources, like a MIR delta neutral strategy, for example. And basically building products, again, like I said at the beginning, that people want to use, that people benefit from that drives value for people. And in terms of the commonalities of the products, I don't see them as necessarily having to all look the same. Like the bot that you just described is interesting to me, and it looks nothing like the Anchor liquidation vaults that we've created, anti liquidation vaults that we've created. So I don't think that the future vaults of Nexus have to completely rely on or send around Anchor, even. In fact, they don't even need to send around Terra. 

Tundra  42:37  
It's funny, I was just talking to one of the other core contributors today about this. And I think there's been a lot of conversation... This is a little bit of a diatribe, but just entertain me on this. There's been a lot of conversation around UST and LUNA, not necessarily having to have a successful layer one for it to survive and succeed. And my point of view on that is, that's such bullshit. I really think that that's bullshit. I think it's probably true, UST and LUNA could survive without the layer one of Terra succeeding and doing well. But first of all, why would we give up the opportunity to make Terra a competitive DeFi environment, where we're shit is being built that people want to use? Why would we want to give that up, forgo that, to... Like Solana, for example, definitely is going to be aggressive and building out their layer one. So 

Cephii  43:46  
Well, we also have the only layer one that I'm aware of where the layer one token is not what you use to pay the fees on the network, necessarily. So one of the benefits here is, I'm not having to sell my Ethereum for gas fees. I guess that creates utility for the actual primary coin on a proof of work system, that makes sense, but it's not clear to me that that's the model that a proof of stake system should use, necessarily. And we're sort of positioned uniquely where the UST fees make sense, because those can be scaled at a more appropriate level than scaling a rapidly appreciating asset. And then a person looks at their ETH fees for trading NF T and they're like, "Holy shit, I just spent $300 on this whatever transaction," it just looks idiotic on its face. And doesn't make any... It just makes zero sense at all, and obviously has driven Terra and Solana's growth to some extent. But yeah, I'm with you on like, the more utilities we can feature... And to me like you don't have to to even invent everything new, some of the things are just improving tax efficiency, improving infrastructure that centralized... Some of the international centralized exchanges have off-chain bot infrastructure, bring some of that on-chain, and just make more... So in other words, people need different layers of price exposure, in my view. Some people want a stable coin, some people want a unstable coin, some people want the yield of a volatility killer of a grid bot, other people want to liquidate people on Anchor. There's so many different price action opportunities is what you're trying to offer.

Tundra  45:40  
Exactly. So I believe in Terra as an L1. I think that the quality of builders that we have here, the continuity of design... I mean, you go over to Solana, and every product that you use, it's going to feel different, it's going to feel like... Obviously, it's made by different people, but they're not even following any type of consistent design standards. On Terra, I think we're off on the right track with a lot of that stuff. So I believe in the future of Terra as an L1. And I think the goal... And I was talking to, like I was saying, I was talking to one of our core contributors about this. I, personally, am from the Terra community. It's the first community I joined when I got into crypto. It's a community I'm super passionate about. So I want Nexus to be basically the Yearn Finance of Terra and also the Cosmos... Kind of the multi-chain future. Some of our other team members are thinking about stuff that's happening on other chains. So maybe Nexus can be the hub for yield opportunities that are happening on Solana, because I think one of the things that I'm noticing that I haven't seen come to fruition, really, is this ability for users to sort of jump between blockchains. Every blockchain has like a learning curve associated with it, and it also takes time for people to get familiar and comfortable with it. So we're not seeing a ton of people seamlessly jump between Ethereum and Terra and Solana and Binance and have that all happen. So for Nexus we could be a gateway, a hub, to the best yield opportunities elsewhere, and just allow people to never leave their Terra Wallet, and just deposit money into Nexus and then we go off and do other things with it, and then bring the yield back to Terra.

Cephii  47:42  
To some extent, I think people would want to just, say for example, deposit their Psi token, and just see maybe the yield from the various activities that are happening in the background, just come back to the token, right. In other words, you may not need to know how the hell anything works in the background, necessarily, right. You don't need to know how an infinity bot functions, if you see a button that says, "Put money in here, and this much money comes out of it, more or less," and you're watching the constant yield, right. It becomes more obvious, "Okay." And then there's a yield history, maybe, a little graph that shows you, "Okay, this has been performing like this over the last six months," or whatever. And you could reasonably assume that the performance is tied to that. So you know, it's something more, not predictable, but simple, but you don't need to know how everything necessarily works. When I go and put money in a mutual fund or some shit, I have no idea what they're doing in the background, right. Yeah, they'll give you a prospectus and this and that, but how many people are really reading that? Probably nearly zero. 

Tundra  48:15  
Yeah. 

Cephii  48:27  
You know? 

Tundra  48:50  
Yeah. 

Cephii  48:53  
Let me get AA on, real quick, he had a question. Go ahead.

AA  48:56  
Yeah. Hey, guys, really appreciate the discussion. I had a couple of questions. [chuckle] I couldn't help but salivate a little bit, when you guys mentioned the OHM potential that you're in discussions with. One thing I always found pretty fascinating about OHM is it seemed to me, like their macro strategy from when they first started, and when I first started hearing about them actually lay out their 10 year plan, especially as it relates to bonds as a service, is where they would actually be the other side of the pairing. So it would be like a Psi-gOHM, in this case, bond. Is that something that you're... Because in that way, they're essentially like splitting the cost with you, of the of the liquidity. Is that...

Tundra  49:48  
Well, we haven't talked to them specifically about that. But I think it's interesting, I mean, it's something that I definitely can bring up to them. I also think that Olympus is actually thinking pretty long term about a lot of this stuff. Like, for example, if we were to partner with them, the way that it would work is 3% of the net proceeds of the bond issuance program would go to them in the form of Psi. And Psi would go into their treasury and basically never be sold, and locked into like a smart contract. And then that would be used to further bolster the intrinsic value of OHM. And if you think about that multiplied over a large number of protocols across the whole crypto ecosystem, you can see how that's like a pretty powerful idea.

AA  50:38  
Massive. 

Tundra  50:39  
Yeah.

AA  50:40  
Yeah. I'm definitely excited about that aspect of it, especially if they can be the base currency for it. I think that's definitely their long term goal is to actually be the other side because it actually cuts your... They're basically splitting the cost of that liquidity acquiring in half with you. They're like, "Okay, we'll split it with you. And then yes, we'll sequester 3% of your coins in our treasury," and then it actually acts like a deflationary factor, which kind of brings me to my next question of, with Psi, do you have concern with emissions, and especially with a bunch of people just initially getting unlocked, that we have that same path that all these native coins tend to go down? Where it's like, "Yeah, we give you these rewards," but then, over time, because of the emissions and dilution and inflation, you actually end up having some difficulties supporting the price. Do you see any deflationary component of this? Or...

Tundra  51:46  
Well, there's a lot of different components or parts to your question. Do I see possible concern with protocol emissions rate? Yeah, I do. And that's why, if you've been following Nexus, we've made a really concerted effort to push in towards protocol owned liquidity, basically, as rapidly as possible. As soon as we started learning about it, our eyes kind of widened, and we were like, "Oh, shit, this is like very obvious." We've been aggressively pursuing it. That's why we've made this big push with Pylon Pools and why we've sequestered 50% of the UST coming from the Pylon Pools to go directly into the treasury. Before then 100% of the money from the Pylon Pools went directly to the team, but we're doing that to bolster protocol and liquidity. In terms of Psi itself, one of the things that I see people get wrong a lot, is the total emissions or fully diluted valuations of, not just Psi but other tokens governance tokens, you have to understand that many of those tokens will never reach circulation, because they're either locked in a community treasury. For example, for us, we have a certain number of tokens set aside for future airdrop, that might potentially happen. We have Psi that was set aside for an operations fund to push through governance votes at the very onset of the protocol that we needed to push through in order to be complied, from a regulatory standpoint, those tokens will never really, truly be in circulation. So there's a lot of different parts of the supply, that aren't actually ever gonna enter circulation. So that would be one thing, I would just caution people as they're looking at this stuff, to just go a little bit deeper and understand that. But then back to Psi, specifically, what we've established so far as the emissions rate for Psi will be at least four years, but I've been pretty public about, I want to extend that out to a longer time horizon. I think we could see like 10 plus years worth of time going by before the emissions rate is completed because of protocol owned liquidity, and because we don't need to pump out as many tokens to get people to come provide, you know, liquidity for these pools, because we own it. So I see it as an issue. I see it not just as an issue for us, but for every protocol that doesn't own its own liquidity. And we're actually really pursuing it.

AA  54:34  
Seems like the only way to go.

Tundra  54:36  
Yeah. Yeah. And it's the next step in DeFi. 

AA  54:40  
Yeah, absolutely. Brings about a lot of security to everybody. And then I'm sort of new to the Pylon Gateway protocols, is that essentially like a Tokemak type of situation where they're basically incentivizing and helping acquire liquidity for the protocols?

Tundra  55:02  
No not really. So Pylon Pools... Pylon has two different core products so far, Pylon Swap and Pylon Pools. Pylon Pools have been more of like a fundraising method, so user deposits money, the yield from that money, the UST goes into Anchor Earn, the yield from that Anchor Earn goes back to the team to fund them so that they can build out the roadmap and actually deliver on the product.

AA  55:29  
Oh, it's like a bootstrapping pool.

Tundra  55:31  
It's a bootstrapping... It's a fundraising product.

AA  55:36  
I gotcha. 'Cause one thing I always thought was pretty interesting about Tokemak was and maybe you're looking at that as well, is like when you were talking about bringing in cross-chain assets and creating vaults for them, it kind of made me think about Tokemak in a way, because they have a pretty interesting relationship with OHM as well.

Tundra  55:56  
Yeah, I think anytime you start getting involved with Ethereum, and this is kind of a similar issue that we have with the MIM looping product, is you start running into issues with gas fees. So it's a little bit trickier to do things with those protocols because of the gas fees.

AA  56:16  
I was just thinking about maybe emulating possibly something that Tokemak's doing, which is bringing liquidity for a cross-chain coin, a cross-chain asset, onto Terra, thus bringing new users into Terra by incentivizing liquidity deposits in your vaults, I guess essentially what you were talking about anyways? 

Tundra  56:37  
Yeah.

Cephii  56:38  
There are actually several core goals that I've been seeing as a general a theme that keeps coming back, no matter which protocol we're talking to, or what we're talking about. And some of these things are: one is, you want to find people utility for their UST; the second is, you want to have utility and holding pressure for LUNA as well; the third would be to bring users from other chains who benefit from all of this and therefore bring them further exposure to LUNA, bring the yield from their coins into Terra, right. What, I think, Stader is eventually going to try to do is bring in cross-chain liquid staking solutions and stuff like that. And of course, there's the general growth of the ecosystem, all the things everyone else already knows, but the community can definitely jump behind anything that locks up more LUNA, in my view. So, similar to how bLuna has utility when you're not using it, because you could use it on Nexus, for example. More of those kinds of LUNA and LUNA yield direction strategies and ways to divert into greater holding pressure. And one thing I'd mentioned to several protocols is, some portion of the treasury seems to make sense to acquire LUNA itself, because then the protocol owned liquidity ends up having a longer term native yield-bearing asset, and generally benefits from the overall growth of the network it's building on. So I don't know, if you guys are holding LUNA specifically.

Tundra  58:30  
We're already doing that. So the protocol tax that's coming from usage of the vault is being added to the treasury in the form of the native asset itself. So the protocol tax that's coming from the nLuna vault is now nLuna, it wasn't always. Initially it was just Psi. And we passed a governance vote, or we passed a governance proposal through and it was voted on by the community, we didn't use any... We haven't used any of the operations fund tokens to vote on anything, it's all been 100% community. And the community voted that the protocol tax should be adding the native asset to the treasury. So we've already started to accumulate nLuna and nETH in the treasury. It's fairly small amounts, but we're already adding those native assets to our treasury.

Cephii  59:26  
And real quick, how does nLuna actually differ in its structure or yield output from traditional LUNA or is it just different by name only or how does that, what is the deal there?

Tundra  59:36  
So nLuna is just a derivative of bLuna, bLuna is a staked derivative, liquid staked derivative of LUNA. So nLuna is the ledger token you receive when you deposit bLuna into the Nexus vault, you receive nLuna back, and that nLuna basically represents bLuna that is being borrowed against in the Nexus vault and that UST is being deployed into the Anchor Earn side, earning the yield. So that's what nLuna is.

Cephii  1:00:10  
I'm still a bit confused on I guess the need to swap into it. I can understand why my money, my bLuna is in the vault. I sort of understand what it's doing there. And I can even understand maybe, nLuna is like a background primitive. But what's not obvious to me is, why would I want to hold nLuna in my wallet? Do I get some benefit to that or just so I can look at it? [chuckle]

Tundra  1:00:37  
Yeah. Well, it's a good question. I think the main purpose for this is so that we could have these pools, these liquidity pools with Psi, and nAssets. And the idea is that the nAsset itself creates yield, that yield goes into the Psi side, which causes buy pressure on nAsset, that is a piece of arbitrage that I do understand and can go into more depth about it. But the reason for the ledger token is so that we could enable this auto compounding to occur within the nAsset pools and create an arbitrage opportunity that would have like a positive flywheel on TVL for the protocol.

Cephii  1:01:25  
But right now, nLuna doesn't natively autocompound, right? It's similar to bLuna in that it's supposed to be pegged to LUNA, or is it literally like, the value is you're buying more LUNA in the... Is it similar to Stader's LunaX? Or is it more like pegged to LUNA?

Tundra  1:01:47  
nLuna is just representative of bLuna that's deposited into the vault.

Cephii  1:01:51  
Got it. So it's not natively autocompounding, then?

Tundra  1:01:54  
It's not. No, it's not. But inside when you pair it with Psi, then it creates an arbitrage opportunity. It's a little bit complicated, because there are some external variables at play there. But the basic idea is the nLuna within the nLuna-Psi pair, for example, the yield that's going to the nLuna is being directed into the Psi side of that pool, which creates an arbitrage opportunity where in order to arb it people deposit more bAssets into the vault, and then sell Psi, which increases the TVL of the protocol.

Cephii  1:02:33  
Because the way I'm imagining this is, okay, so the use of any kind of compounding or yield or any asset, I keep saying this to everyone I can... They can hear me say it, and that is, if you took what I talked about earlier, like the KuCoin Infinity Bot, but instead of USDT, Tether on one side of the equation, and on the other side of the trade is, let's say regular LUNA, an amazing product to build would be the grid bot I described earlier, but with aUST on one side of the trade and yield earning liquid staked LUNA on the other side. So actually, even if it was nLuna, for example, and yield is being generated in the background, you would take that yield, and then you would re-enter that yield into the bot into either some kind of DCA or refilling all the limit orders. And what that would do is you're just sort of creating a bilateral... So you eliminate not only the volatility risk, but now you're getting the yield benefits instead of just sitting in UST while you're waiting for it to do something, you're getting it in the aUST, which is growing, right. So both sides of the transactions are yield earners, which are essentially probably the most lucrative grid bot you can create in the history of the world. It'd be fucking amazing. Anybody with just half of a brain would go, "You know what, I want that." [chuckle]

Tundra  1:04:02  
Man, you're really excited about this grid bot. 

Cephii  1:04:04  
But you see what I'm saying though. Imagine you're on an exchange, right, you have a bunch of limit orders on an exchange. And you know how a normal exchange works, you have Tether or UST or something, and it's sitting there waiting to execute a trade right. But imagine that just simply being aUST instead, wouldn't that makes sense? So let's say you're sufficiently bearish on your LUNA position, and you think, "I can get an order in at a cheaper price." But today to do that, you'd either have to put a market order in, when you get... Your attention span reaches the point where you want to buy it or you have UST parked there in a limit order, and you're essentially a market maker order at that point, which is fine, but your UST is doing nothing while it's sitting there. That's the problem that I'm trying to solve.

Tundra  1:04:57  
Yeah, like I said when you first mentioned it, I think it's a good idea. I'll definitely bring it up to my team and see what they think. And yeah, maybe we'll circle back and have more conversations about it. See if there's anymore...

Cephii  1:05:10  
If you see my point, it's... The idea is to take the yield off the assets, and be not only autocompounding them, but optimizing even further in the sense that you're not just relying on the staking activity, but you're actually, in the background, sort of trading it for them. But imagine how much reduction in volatility risk you reduce when you have aUST earning 20% on the one side nLuna earning close to 10% on the other side, right? So both are... You're earning no matter whether your trades are perfect or not. On top of that you're earning the trade benefits too, is sort of the theory. So anyway...

Tundra  1:05:51  
For sure.

Cephii  1:05:52  
Let me get Alex on real quick. And we could probably break after his question, perhaps. Will, try to get on but I think his connection keeps breaking for some reason. Oh, well, Alex was there a second, and now he's not.

AA  1:06:05  
Can I ask one more quick question? 

Cephii  1:06:07  
Yeah, go ahead. 

AA  1:06:07  
So I think I was a part of that discussion earlier today about the layer one versus layer two, like how it just didn't seem... They were trying to make a case that it just wasn't critical for layer one to succeed, which I just...

Tundra  1:06:21  
Who was saying that, by the way? Just curious.

AA  1:06:24  
I didn't catch who that was, it was a discussion this morning on... It had Danny Siesta on there, and like three other guys, and they were just... It was the LUNA/Solana debate with the Ethereum v1, v2, and they actually made a case that the layer one wasn't even critical for it to be successful.

Tundra  1:06:45  
See, I just think that's such a lazy way to think, like, "Oh, yeah," just you know, forget about it.

Cephii  1:06:52  
Well, I think what they're trying to say is that it's an advantage for Terra. 

Tundra  1:06:57  
I get it.

Cephii  1:06:58  
Because we have a product that... Nobody's saying, "Don't build the layer one," it's just that it's an additional advantage of Terra that none of the other chains have.

Tundra  1:07:05  
But it gives an avenue for a cop out, and what that is, is it's actually very, very hard to build stuff, very, very hard to build stuff. You have to tell a story, you have to do it... All this stuff has to be done ethically, created the right way, all disclosures have to be created... It's very hard to build stuff. And so I think just by saying like, "Oh, yeah, we don't even need the L1," I think it's just a very easy, it's just an easy path out of doing something that's very hard to do, which is creating a sustainable economy of products that need to get built.

Cephii  1:07:46  
Well, the the thought is sort of like, there was a comment that doe made at some point. And it was something along the lines of, "Well, we we hadn't really designed this initially to be an L1. But we sort of just decided to go ahead and do it anyway." And people make it sound like, "Oh, yeah, just sort of accidentally became an L1." It didn't accidentally become anything. I mean, the reality is, is that that took like a major concerted effort to make that occur and the vision developed over time. So now we have this very specialised system.

Tundra  1:08:13  
Here's what I think, I think that you've got big players who are very comfortable with their Metamask wallet, who don't want to really venture outside of Ethereum, really, because they don't want to use a bridge to move serious funds around. Or they don't want to learn about the new ecosystem. And they're more than happy to invest in LUNA, as a shiny, up and coming L1. They can buy it on centralized exchanges. But they don't want to necessarily move serious amounts of capital into Terra. So I don't think we have a ton of institutional dollars floating around...

AA  1:08:54  
Yet.

Tundra  1:08:55  
Outside of... Yet. Yeah. But it will take... It doesn't happen on its own, so... Yeah.

AA  1:09:03  
Where I was kind of going with that, and I heard Do Kwon, one of the most... I've listened to almost all of his interviews, and there's 90% overlap, but then there's 3%, where it's like, "Oh, I didn't know that," where it's like, he had mentioned that one of the advantages of building on Cosmos using their SDK was essentially through sharding. So it's like, you can have things on the same blockchain, or you can actually choose to use kind of your own side chain from that blockchain. So like, if you're thinking about... Where I'm thinking it's not so much in the realm of DeFi, but even like, what's going to be... 'Cause I think the winners here, there's so much going on, there's so much being built here, I think the winners here are going to be the ones that actually have real world implications, real world disruptive technology. So I'm thinking, for Terra, if I'm going to build out a payroll service, right, I'm going to handle different business' payroll services, and I'm going to do it on the Terra blockchain. You know, basically I could select my own side shard to build on. And from a security and an OPSEC standpoint, exclude communication with the main blockchain until I want to basically report back and dump big blocks at a time, but my day-to-day is not going to be congested by all the transactions that are essentially on the main chain. Does that...

Tundra  1:10:36  
Hey, if you have a vision for what you want to build, I would say, go out and do it. I spent two years working at Apple. And it was a great experience, I learned a lot. But now that I'm building stuff, and actually a part of this community, and just in DeFi, in general, oh my God, there's so much to build. There's so many things that need to be built. And there's just a huge deficit of talent, and people who are committed and willing to put in the work because it is a grind. It is a grind, yeah, it's an incredible grind. But if you have something, an idea that you want to build, get involved with community, meet people, meet a developer, make friends with them, show them the work that you've already done, and build it because there's a lot of money out there for people who have good ideas and have good team to actually execute. And we just need stuff built. So, do it. Just do it. And quit your job.

Cephii  1:11:40  
Some people have... [chuckle] Yeah. Some of it is like, some of the products are type of things that we know we would use if we had them available. And they just don't exist yet. And then there's other things that there are going to be people that actually go out and build those specific things. But it takes time. But looking at the overall landscape over the next year, I don't see a whole lot that's not sufficiently bullish for Terra, specifically. What's your... Of all the protocols, since you're with a protocol, what are some of the other general protocols you think that are coming that are going to really change the game? The big ideas. Do you have ideas where Nexus might do things like Andromeda or something like that?

Tundra  1:12:26  
Not necessarily Andromeda, but I think Mars. Mars is definitely interesting. But a year is a long time. A year is so long, so we could just... The narrative right now could be vastly different than it is a month from now, for example. So the whole space is evolving so fast. And we're definitely excited about the stuff that's being built on Prism, on Mars. And also other more... They're maybe more far out ideas, like Sigma, and Lavana, I think, is another example. But yeah, these things are all very interesting. But there's so much stuff to build. If you have an idea, just put some documentation together around it, go find some people that are excited about it like you are, and get in touch with me. If you have an idea that you think is worth building, and you have a team, reach out to me and I'll try to help you. There's so much stuff that we need to build in our community, in our ecosystem. And I believe in Terra as an L1, not as just like, "Oh, yeah, if wrapped UST survives on Ethereum or Solana, then we're good." [chuckle] I just think that's not the golden path.

Cephii  1:13:51  
It also won't lead to the most aggressive price appreciation of LUNA, specifically, which many of us are for, obviously.

Tundra  1:13:59  
And even if you just want to talk to me, if you have an idea that you think is worth talking about, send me a DM and I will set up some time. So, that's just an open invitation for anybody out there.

Cephii  1:14:13  
Yeah. And yeah, thanks for coming on, and covering all these details. And I'm just sort of randomly interviewing people for the most part with my time. [chuckle] So I have a reasonable amount of technical understanding of things to where... What I get tired of is like the news... So if you watch the news media, right, you look at CNBC, you have a bunch of fucking idiots that don't know anything about anything, and they're interviewing people that know a lot of things about a lot of things, but they never ask any useful questions, don't you get that sense? So, I got on here thinking, "You know what, I'm just gonna solve this myself." I'll try to figure out some smart questions and discover things that I like to use and see how we can get them implemented and these kinds of things as opposed to just... It doesn't help people that much to go over-simplified sometimes in terms of the conversations about this sort of thing. Because if you look at the people in the room here, there's a lot of smart folks that are listening who kind of know the system and wanna know the deeper answers, I think.

Tundra  1:15:21  
Well, I appreciate you having me on, and I'm happy to come back on anytime. I think one of the things I'll probably just say here, 'cause I know you're trying to wrap it is, price volatility of Psi is, is definitely something that I think about more than I'd like to, just because I hear people in the community saying that they're in pain because they lost value in Psi or whatever. At the same time, the only way for us to grow, and not just for Nexus but for everybody, is to build. So our main focus is to build, like I was saying earlier, products that people want to use. And then hopefully through community dialogue like this, we can create things that drive value capture to Psi and ultimately create a virtuous flywheel. And I don't need to only come on stuff like this when the price of Psi is going up. I'm happy to jump on calls like this at any time. And we have basically an open door policy. So if you have any questions and you didn't want to ask on this call, you can find me on Discord, on our official Discord channel. And you can find me on telegram or you can DM me on Twitter, so happy to answer any questions that you have either now or later.

Cephii  1:16:46  
Cool. And I'll share with some of the gang here if they have questions. But yeah, you're free to hop off if you need to go. So good catching up with you.

Tundra  1:16:56  
For sure. Thanks again for the call. And we'll talk soon. 

Cephii  1:16:59  
Cool. 

Tundra  1:17:00  
And I'll talk to my team about this grid bot that you're selling.

Cephii  1:17:06  
It's my fantasy. It's my nerd sexual fantasy here going on. [chuckle]

Tundra  1:17:16  
[chuckle] All right. Take care, see ya.

Cephii  1:17:17  
Alright. Go ahead. What's up, man?

Hutch  1:17:19  
Yeah, that was awesome. Thanks, Tundra, for coming on and reporting. I just wanted to, and I don't know how much I can say, but I wanted to report on a privileged call. It was a private call, I was let on with the powers that be at Andromeda. Turns out my anon buddy was really, really connected. And I was sworn to secrecy, so I don't want to speak out of turn. But what I can tell you guys, is all of these things that we want to build, it's all bottlenecked by devs, and auditors. And I heard the same thing on the Anchor AMA call. And so it's not that easy, as far as, "Hey, you got a great idea, just go meet... Come on, get it done." I mean, it's just not that easy, but it could be when Andromeda comes to be. In very simplistic terms, and they have a white paper on the Andromeda protocol, their website, but in very simplistic terms, it is going to be the WordPress of dapps or smart contracts. So that Cephii can build his limit order autobot, I can build my estate planning, I want to build a block trading. On the call the other day, we were talking about, "Hey, started a company in Ireland or Dubai." And it's protected from taxes or regulation or whatever, but you have to trust somebody over there. Well, if we can build our own DAO-like automated structure, then we take all those trust issues out of it, but I don't know devs. And I have some great ideas conceptually, but technically, I don't know how to do that. But apparently, it's going to be, maybe not that easy, but a lot closer to easy, especially as... They're called ADOs.

Cephii  1:19:13  
And actually, for those that don't understand what he's talking about, if any of you have used a fairly decent Lego block style platform, like if you've built a website on Shopify, if you have built a WordPress site, if you have built... If you've used a service like LegalZoom, or something like that, the idea is, is that... LegalZoom would be an example, you can build yourself a will, with all the usual crap that goes in a will, that maybe pick and choose from the pieces that people have already thought this through. And so you don't have to redefine an entire legal document from scratch. You can just basically take little pieces. So if I want to have a block that essentially takes the yield out of aUST and directs it at something, then I'd have a block that I drag and drop or whatever on Andromeda. And then I could have that yield flow into, say, buying LUNA on Miaw Trader or something like that, or filling the queue in Kujira, or something like that, right? Yeah, so this is the idea. Either you're creating a simple system where people can arbitrarily create a fresh, almost like a coin or a smart contract, and it's just sort of running and doing its thing. And what they're essentially providing is exactly what he's saying is like an App Store, sort of. Think of it sort of like on your iPhone, you know how you have this new shortcuts framework where they'll take your Hey Siri and they'll connect it to the Notepad, and then you can have that automatically turned into a PDF or something like that. You have this sort of like... Not a if-then... You can also have, theoretically, if-then statements like IFTTT, If This Then That, if you've ever used that platform. So there's a lot of those kinds of automations happening and automation's something I love to talk about a lot, and I think is sort of what attracted me to Nexus. Their first product, essentially, is an automation of your bLuna to do some shit in the background and then get you some yield, right? Similarly, like what Hutch is saying, yeah, Andromeda's building a framework for doing more of this. So what you need is more projects, say for example, on Nexus. So that way, those building blocks can be incorporated into pieces that are sitting on Andromeda, for example. And you can do cool things with the output. Is that what you're trying to say, Hutch?

Hutch  1:21:52  
Yeah. that's a great analogy. And what I got further from it is that the more things that are being built on there, from those of us with entrepreneurial, creative spirits, the library of building blocks, or Lego pieces just gets bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger. And so building gets easier and easier. And more complex gets made simpler, for those of us that have ideas. And so it's what I took away from the call... Oh, go ahead.

Cephii  1:22:23  
What a side point for everybody to understand is what's important about that real world structure is, your profit and loss statement ultimately could be done in UST on this platform, or in your native currency, which is actually important to a lot of people that are building businesses and this and that. So just keep that in mind, if you're on other chains, you have to either import UST or you have some other, let's say, stablecoin infrastructure, but P&L statements based on Ethereum don't make a whole lot of sense to a lot of people, so that's another piece of this.

Hutch  1:23:04  
And to not speak out of turn, and I agree with you, and in fact that the guy I spoke to basically said they were ETH guys, and then when they realized the lack of friction, all types of friction from developing on CosmWasm, and starting with Terra was just so obvious once they understood it. But without naming names, they do plan to branch out to some other major chains. And so talk about adoption for UST. At first there's going to be resistance, kind of like what the gentleman was saying. People that love their Metamask wallet, they just... People know what they know, and they stick with what they know. But then they kind of start to get migrated over and then when they realize like, "Holy crap. No, I don't need to trade in an appreciating asset that I want to keep. I can use UST," it's going to be massive. That's the good news. The bad news is these guys aren't in a hurry. They wanted... They're well funded, and they want to do it right.

Cephii  1:24:07  
Yeah, that's why like I look at the investment...

Hutch  1:24:10  
And they're not in a hurry, so I think I was looking... Did I lose you?

Cephii  1:24:17  
Hutch, you're cutting in and out a little bit now, by the way. 

Hutch  1:24:20  
Okay. All right. I'm in the car, so I parked somewhere. Apparently, it was a bad spot. So, I'm gonna start moving again. Go ahead.

Cephii  1:24:30  
You're a little bit better right now. But yeah, I was gonna say that... That's why when I talk about Terra, I talked about it, really, more long term. I know, everyone's always just bitching about the next bear market or bull market or whatever. But the reality is, is like to be really successful, it's all about sort of keeping your eye on the longer term prize, and then either investing or discussing or building accordingly. And it does help when everyone's pitching ideas to the builders. Even if it wasn't something they can build, it might spark ideas that help their product be better. And it's sort of like crowdsource information to some degree, in some ways some of us do have enough knowledge that if we had the time, we had a development team, I could re-engineer global healthcare, for example. But it's really a matter of how much time you have to build that out. And that's a much more complicated real world thing than just having some pie in the sky bullshit in your head. When people hear about these ideas, I think it does spark the imagination, at least a little bit. At least it does mine when I hear different people talking about stuff.

Tundra  1:25:42  
Yeah, I definitely agree with that. And I heard, one of the things Hutch said, which I definitely agree with is, well, it's not so easy, finding a developer team, finding a dev team, not so easy. I was making that maybe sound like, "Oh, yeah, all you got to do is find a bunch of Rust developers, and go out and build." I think that's... I totally agree that that's a huge problem right now.

Cephii  1:26:08  
Not only that, but without knowing even a little bit of either programming, coding, if you don't know that the nominal pros and cons of like, how much Rust related functions are happening on the validators, versus... Where's that, actually... The code running actually that... And what kind of infrastructure has to be built to run that code? The more complicated you get, right, the bigger the infrastructure gets too. So it's one thing to imagine an idea, it's another thing to translate that to an actual working program, and then ultimately translating that to some sort of on-chain finality, essentially, and that there's a whole realm of shit that goes on.

Tundra  1:26:55  
Yeah, yeah. So I think, from my point of view, everybody is going to have their own interest area, which is going to naturally be their strength area. So for me, I'm not as technical so, but I like... Narrative is a big deal to me. I understand the narrative and I understand our community, because I'm a part of it. So one of the things that I was able to help with and get involved with was starting the Twitter account, the Nexus Twitter account, and growing that. So I guess my point is, find what you like to do, if you have this passion, and I think Hutch, you said this really well, if you have an entrepreneurial spirit, find what you like to do, what you're passionate about, and surround yourself or go hang out in different Discord servers or Telegram, around people that are doing things that you're interested in, and try to be helpful. And try to just get involved and engaged, and you would be shocked by how quickly things can happen. For example, Ernestas is a guy that posted a couple interesting videos, a couple interesting thought pieces around Nexus early days. And now he's part of GT Capital, and I don't know fully what the deal is there, but I think they're investing in seed rounds and stuff like that. And it's an interesting thing, and so now you start to say, "Alright, well how can this grow?" Maybe he gets more involved with the Nexus DAO, eventually, when we stand it up. So there's a route for you to get more involved in crypto than you are, than just as a community member shitposting on Twitter. If you just lean into the things that you're interested in, and hang out with people in a genuine way, and try to be helpful and actually add value, you'd be shocked by how there's just not that much resistance. If you want to get closer to something, people generally will just get out of your way and say, "Yeah, come on in." 

Hutch  1:29:02  
Yeah. I love that. So early on before Gary Vee, Gary Vaynerchuk, was into NFTs, I followed him because I was getting into marketing for my other business. And his original book, it's very old, it's at least a decade old, it's called Crush It. And basically the premise of Crush It was that, there's been no better time than now to monetize your passion, and granted, this was 10 years ago, right. So this is even before crypto was even close to mainstream. But basically he said, in the past you would need radio ads or print ads and the economies of scale you needed to really get started to be an entrepreneur and monetize your passion was just so high. You had to really get lucky and then obviously with social media and Web 2.0, it got easier. And he was involved in the late '90s with winetv.com. With crypto and especially with what I learned with this Andromeda, we're already at the forefront of TVL, total value locked, we're already at the forefront of developer activity. And it's not reflected yet in price. But when I learned about this, Andromeda, I just thought, "Holy crap, innovation is gonna start on Terra." And so we're all still so early. And I think that advice that Tunda has given is, is great. A lot of us are still working our day jobs, whatever that looks like, but start at least brainstorming about what you're passionate about, what you're good at, what you have unique value to offer in terms of knowledge and structure, and start to at least just kind of napkin out what that looks like as a dapp. Because even though you may not know a developer now, it might be only a year and a half or two years, or heck, maybe if it's three years, before you could just drag and drop and smart contract that out.

Tundra  1:30:55  
Totally agree. Go ahead, Cephii.

Cephii  1:30:56  
I was talking to someone that was, essentially graduating from a training program, essentially going to work in a professional career. And the way I was talking to him was, it's not really clear, at least in in the US market, it's not really clear that your paycheck is going to keep up with inflation with the current scenario. And that, really, we're sort of in a period of stagflation, in a sense. And this is why when I sort of inform people in my circle of what to do, a lot of what I tried to figure out is how people can better extract yield from their income that they're pulling in. So this concept of Web 3.0 being almost like ownership in the system, ownership in the network, ownership in the productive output of that network, and then earning you yield better than you, not just get at the bank, but like minimally have to combat inflation. Forget about the 20% Anchor Protocol, let's assume that doesn't exist long term, and just pretend that's going to be lower. But either way, the the goal for many people is, is as automation comes about, not only just in financial services and accounting, and a lot of other professional services, what people are going to have the problem with is, this is why so many people talk about this universal basic income theory, not because they're necessarily like socialists, or whatever, but because the problem is, is as automation takes over everything, how do human beings take part in that network. And this has been a concern of mine, among other people that have talked about this. And it's not that we're trying to create some socialist network, that's not the point. I'm certainly not a socialist by any stretch of the imagination. But the concept is, how do you then take some of the passive yield that the machines are creating and generate some for yourself, so you're not only worried about what's coming from your job. So I think those kinds of products, to me, built on Terra are going to be super interesting to people just the same way depositing on UST Anchor is. And some of the stuff Hutch is talking about is just translating some of the TradFi services over to this, so that you're not dependent on not only banks and such as you might imagine, but other legal structures, for example, wills and estates and all of that, that Hutch was talking about there. Any other comments, Hutch, about my theory of the world there? [chuckle]

Hutch  1:33:45  
Yeah, I've heard both kinds. I'm by no means a socialist, but the one argument I did hear about universal basic income that actually made a good amount of sense is that it'll increase creativity and entrepreneurial drive, if... There's enough dollars or whatever, monetary value. I hate even calling them "dollars", now that I'm so hot for crypto.

Cephii  1:34:12  
And by the way, I'm not suggesting that some government does this. What I'm saying is that, if you look at what proof-of-stake assets do, it's sort of what they do, right. If you participate, you get paid. If you don't participate, you just speculate on your ATOM or your LUNA, you don't get paid. It's as simple as that.

Hutch  1:34:28  
If you work in Mickey D's and you put enough in diversification of yield farms, I think crap, there's some UBI, not UBI, but I mean, there's some universal basic income. And what I got from it that was positive is, and it kind of reminded me of Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs, or whatever, like the bottom of the pyramid is just like the basic kind of food, shelter, primal stuff, and it's like, "Come on people. It's 2021." And so if everybody had that part handled, right, we could move closer to the top of the pyramid which, at the top are more grandiose things like creativity. And then some people even created another one, like a circle on top of the pyramid that's service. When really, when you're when you're doing this, when you're making dapps, the only reason you get paid is because you're offering value, like Terraspaces, he's recording this. I posted a little something, everybody should throw this guy at bone. He's just working his butt off to make sure nobody misses this thing. I mean, dollars follow value, crypto follows value, so that he doesn't have to get a fiat job or whatever that looks like. If somebody is gonna patronize your app, or your service, or whatever... The reason why Apple's so valuable, think how much value they've added to all of our lives. But that's the one argument I did hear about, that I liked about universal basic income is once everybody stops worrying about these primal needs, like everybody's gonna be okay, and have their, their basic needs taken care of, now we can all operate on a much higher plane, and be more creative, and make things that are going to make life better for everybody.

Cephii  1:36:11  
Yeah, and that works for some people, it doesn't work for others. [chuckle] Have you been around this universe long enough? Some people just get on their ass with that.

Hutch  1:36:18  
I'm all about self responsibility. And what I found is, at least in where I live, when you put things in the hands of government agencies that nobody has experience running a business or whatever, there's a lot of inefficiency. And so I hate politics. I don't actually subscribe to either political party, I think it's just a big puppet show to get everybody fighting to take attention off the real powers that be. But regardless, I always had a solution that like, what if we just got like the top CEOs, CEOs, CFOs, offer them some tax credits to go and do think tanks with the Postal Service and the IRS, like all the top five accounting firms, just get some of the... Whoever will volunteer for some tax credits, get him to go freakin clean up all the inefficiency. Well, then we can provide whatever, this party with more services and we can provide this party with more tax breaks, like there's tons of fat, just in inefficiency. And that's why I don't like putting all the value in the hands of the government. But I think a lot of that gets cleared up with in the world of crypto, it's a much cooler community. It's all about empowering the unbanked.

Cephii  1:37:29  
Yeah, like today, one of the biggest, most inefficient markets in the world is actually the... The healthcare market is actually one of the worst in terms of that. The incentives are a mess, the bureaucratic bloat is always a mess. And that's one of those crypto applications, I think... The Web 3.0 style of revolution could really benefit healthcare more than almost anything else in the world, I would say, at this moment. You could literally eliminate everything from private health insurance, you could eliminate central government programs, you could create like lottery pools necessary to handle, say for example, unfunded care. You could do all sorts of interesting systems. And what would end up happening is, is essentially what you see today as either the loss to bureaucratic bloat, or the loss to... Because profitability goes to insurance companies...

Hutch  1:38:37  
It's both. It's both part of the same thing.

Cephii  1:38:40  
It's both, right. And legal system. So what you'd end up having instead is all of that flow that goes to all this other nonsense would basically just go back to the insurance pool, and we're all gonna make it kind of thing. There's no obvious reason to believe that you're LUNA is not a better health insurance policy than health insurance itself. If you look at it from a yield output perspective.

Hutch  1:39:02  
What did Mr. Wonderful say? I think he said it last April where it's just like... When he realized how awesome DeFi was as a revolution, there's gonna be a lot of financial middleman losing their jobs, maybe they can get a job shining shoes. There's powers that be that are fighting this and you mentioned two of them, which are, in my mind, part of the same thing. Again, it's just something they kind of distract us to have us bicker over red or blue, or this or that or whatever. But the government bloat or the bureaucratic bloat, and the profitability from lobbyists and everything else, they don't want to change anything. And part of Satoshi's vision is blockchain actually does create a lot of efficiency to, again, find another way to empower the unbanked. So I hope we get to see that through but it's probably not going to happen without a fight. Reminds me of that Office meme where there's the two pictures, "Hey, corporate wants you to find the difference between these two pictures." You could put that, you could put the corporate profitability and the bureaucratic bloat. They're the same picture. [chuckle]

Cephii  1:40:11  
Right, right, right. Yeah, 'cause I see the political dialogue in the US usually comes from two basic lobbyist pools, as an example, for healthcare. You have the people who are lobbying for... Because they eat from the trough of the centralized activities, for example, a pharmaceutical company likes central government based health care because they can make a lot of money off of that. On the other hand, there's another group of people that will be like, "The government should do everything socialist style," folks, then you have the folks that are more like, "The government shouldn't touch anything, it should be just total... Free for all," folks, then there's... Yeah, there's just every layer of want and need in that. And since the healthcare is one of those things that touches literally every human being, everyone has some opinion about it. And I think you could design tokenomics... And I don't even think you'd have to have one system. You could design tokenomics theory based on whichever philosophical angle that you have. And similar to how governance on a specific chain is specific to that chain, you could join a system that fits your philosophy. So if your philosophy is that more of the funds that are remaining should go towards an Angel Protocol type scenario where you're contributing to the benefit of others, directly, and you can make that work, well then you that's the one you should join, right. And then if you think that, "Well, I want the... I don't have that kind of money to be spending on everybody else's problem right now. I just need to... I'm poor and I just need to get ahead," then you mainly need to figure out how to acquire money for yourself. You need to be appropriately selfish at that point, and sort of make it first before you can help everyone else, sometimes. But anyway, you can join different... You can create different systems for different people.

Hutch  1:42:15  
Blockchain is gonna give people more avenues to opt out, they're already in healthcare, they're already avenues to opt out. It's just the more scale there is... It's almost like tokenomics, the more scale there is, or the more liquidity there is in the pool, the more efficient that market is. And so I think blockchain is gonna give people more avenues to opt out in the way that they want to opt out.

Cephii  1:42:39  
In fact, a good analogy is, just thinking about opting out, the analogy is, the people that talk about cord cutting, right. They're the people that were dependent on their phone company via a wire, they're depending on their cable company via a wire, and you were stuck with the products and services that the phone company gave you, and you're stuck with the products and services that your cable company gave you. And remember all those bundled... You had to buy 6 million channels and a bunch of shit you didn't watch to subsidize everybody else, right. And eventually what happened is, is that we all knew that was gonna come to an end eventually, because it's just not efficient for me to buy 70 channels I don't watch, right. So it makes it harder though for all those channels to survive because they don't have an arbitrary cash flow source. But it also forces the existing channels that are left to produce something of half decent quality so that you're willing to pay for it and I think that's really brought the cost down of my viewing experience. It's been highly deflationary for my entertainment, I would say, probably for most people here if you were paying anything for that. And I think the DeFi system further tapers that down, do you think? The ability to opt out of shit you don't want?

Hutch  1:43:56  
Absolutely. And again, the more liquidity there is, the more efficient that'll be. For me at this point, it's just more of a energy spent. So like, for instance, I'm fairly new to crypto. I knew about it a long time ago, but I didn't give it a lot of energy because I didn't think it would take off mainstream. And then with the run up of early 2021, I realized I was wrong and I poured into that. Well I know so many people that spent so much energy arguing about the political puppet show or vaccinations or this or whatever it is, which is all fine. It's all noble, it's all whatever, but I have a personal rule that if I can't have a direct affect or control on a scale that's going to make a difference, I just don't allow myself to expend that much energy. I love this conversation. It's great. But again, my takeaway from this, and hopefully it's for a lot of you, Tundra said it, is start thinking of where you can really make an impact with your dapp or whatever that looks like. Because the infrastructure is not there now, but it's going to be and so the more of it... That's also the part, it's not just the liquidity pool, but you need some creative people and you need some people that have knowhow about all the different avenues. Start thinking about how to create that, how to build that, and then value will flow there. And you'll get paid for your efforts, which is fine, then you should. That's the beauty of economics.

Cephii  1:45:16  
Some of these brainstorming games to me, though, also how it helps me as like an investor, is defining what it is I think the world wants before they know they want it, right. That's the Steve Jobs way of determining what needs to go into the next great product. And maybe people don't know they need it yet, like the App Store and the iPhone, or like a glass screen without a button in it or whatever. But there has to be a roadmap to eventually get there, obviously, and tremendous amount of development to say, for example, get rid of the home button on your iPhone. I mean, holy crap, like, think about how much stuff had to be invented for that. But if you're gonna skate to where the puck is, you're not gonna do that in a year, you're not gonna do that in, sometimes, even a few years. It's gonna be more like the 10, 20 year approach. A lot of people in the room that have followed us are fairly young and have a tremendous amount of time ahead of them. And the ability to see the long term vision and either contribute to it, or at least use it as a way to decide, "Hey, if I'm going to buy this token or that token, does it make sense? Is it going to be something people are going to be using in the future or not? Are there competitors to that?" So this is all sort of game theory. And the better you get at analyzing these things, the better you're going to make choices that make sense, financially or otherwise, in my view.

Hutch  1:46:45  
Yeah. And I actually do like having these brainstorming conversations for that reason. What I was saying is I can catch myself at the tail end of a conversation like this, like, "Damn healthcare. Damn this," and it's like just expending all this energy and just wanting to argue with people or whatever, and it does no good. But instead, I'm just gonna force myself to just compartmentalize that energy and go, "Okay, well, what can I affect and control? What do I love to spend my energy on?" And start putting it towards a positive there instead of this confrontational negative. And what I find just around in society, there's just so much negative energy that's just spinning. And again, I just call it the puppet show. And I think it's totally orchestrated by the powers that be. And so we're all on the bleeding edge. I do think that innovation and something wonderful is brewing here in LUNA. So let's all heed the call and figure out how we can get involved for our collective part, whatever that looks like, everybody has some value to add in some way. Think about what lights you up in gravitate there.

Cephii  1:47:48  
Yeah, one way to look at... Because you try to steer clear of politics, but the way I recommend looking at political viewpoints is this. You have a lot of genetic and phenotypic behaviors in human beings, ultimately. It's all just a big wrapper of human behavior. And what you look at is you say, "Okay, wait a minute. If I'm going to develop a system, how are these different political behaviors, how are they going to respond to the system I'm building?" Right. And if it's something that's gonna alienate one group or the other, I need to figure out how to market to that group or build so that that group sees that as a valuable system. So you will typically see on any chain, you'll have a mixture of things developed that resemble the real world, because that's just who we are in the end, whether it's charity developing, whether it's people that just want yield, people that want to grow their wealth, people that want to pay their employees. Whatever it is that you see in the real world, if you see that being executed well on-chain, that's going to be a good sensibility to have. Bear in mind, for everyone who's investing in projects on whatever, it's really, really easy to talk a big game, like you're gonna change the world in 10 years. The reality is, very few people will actually do it. So you're watching for not only short term, but long term execution. And keep in mind, when you're talking about small protocols on chain, like, I don't know, Kujira, or Nexus or whoever, the thing to keep in mind is that's a group of people, something had happened to a lead developer, for example... I'm not wishing ill on anybody, but the point is, some of those types of systems are highly centralized and highly dependent on someone doing that work. And the value of that token over some long period of time, or that coin, could be very dependent on that centralized organization. That's the very opposite of what a trustless decentralized system like Bitcoin is, and the reason why Bitcoin has a place versus centralized activities. 

Cephii  1:50:10  
And that the removing centralization risk is a fundamental design question, but a lot of the protocols and projects you think of, guys, it's not possible to execute them in a fully decentralized manner. Someone's got to build some shit in the background, right? So be really thinking carefully about that. So when it comes to all these little protocols that I talked to, I tend to take small allocations in them and kind of experiment with them. And the idea is that they still make good money because if Nexus or whoever, you have so many people on Terra, and each of them throw $100 into something, it amounts to quite a bit in the end. They don't need, necessarily, mega whales investing to make this work. So that's one of the benefits of decentralization, but don't necessarily think that because we talked about some protocol or whatever you suppose throw your life savings or some shit in there, okay? Be paying attention to how these people are speaking, whether you believe what they say, and that kind of thing, but realize that you can't ever fully be sure about anything. Any other comments there, guys? 

AA  1:51:16  
Yeah, if I cut in real quick...

Hutch  1:51:18  
Guys, I gotta run. Thanks. Thanks, Cephii for always doing it. Love these. See, you guys.

AA  1:51:23  
Thanks Hutch. Yeah, real quick, I was just... I think sometimes, it's also really nice to just reflect back on just how far we have actually come. What we've survived, the turmoil, the drama, the news, just how far we've actually come and to what we've accomplished, and how fast, and the parabolic trajectory that we're on is just so amazing to me. It's so clear to me that this thing can't be stopped, can't be slowed down. It's way bigger than any one of us, and any one chain, and any one country's Congress or anything like that. I mean, we're just...

Cephii  1:52:07  
Imagine having this Spaces and just having this be whatever the fucking Congress thing was.

AA  1:52:12  
Oh, my God, it'd be so much more productive.

Cephii  1:52:15  
The public could be like, "Wait a minute. Oh, there's some utility to this, that we're not fully understanding." And this is the reason why the herd sort of comes really late too, because most people, they get their information from these types of sources. They figure their government is trustworthy, or not trustworthy, but useful. They figure that the media is useful in some way, and that's their primary avenue to hearing about these discussions, and they're just completely missing it. It's also true, by the way, generally, in undergraduate programs, university programs, there are definitely some people in those programs that have some vision, like I think doe went to Stanford, for example. But that doesn't mean he was taught what to build at those schools, right. Like you don't go to school to learn what to build, that's not how this works. You learn some structural things, but you're not going to get that in a school level. So usually, by the time mass adoption happens, and it's being taught in elementary school, we're talking about a couple more decades goes by and then it becomes just... And then even then people just have to be taught the base utility, they don't know how anything works, right. Most people don't know how the cell phone works. 

AA  1:53:35  
I think what's super fascinated about this, already, is right now one of the biggest barriers to entry into this space as a builder, right, is you've got to learn all this programming language, you got to really understand a lot of OPSEC, a lot of intricacies with how the... All the interactions of the blockchain and how, like mathematicians and all this kind of stuff, but just like Hutch had mentioned earlier, the more built out that the libraries get, the lower that bar is now getting, and that's kind of like, the whole thesis to Kadena right. The KDA is... They basically have this legalzoom.com platform for a smart contract, right. You can just drag and drop and basically make your own... You can build on their speaking human language, and that's...

Cephii  1:54:28  
Right, they're packed infrastructure, essentially.

AA  1:54:31  
Yeah, so you don't have to worry, you don't have to be like Einstein to just build. You can just have a great idea and be like, "Hey, I'd like to see real estate deeds be on the blockchain," so now DAOs can own real estate, now we can all buy a freakin sports arena that has "Nexus"... "The Nexus Lakers Arena" or some some shit on it, right? I mean, that's the trajectory that we're on. I could see DAOs being a major real estate... Different DAOs being major real estate holders, that are just voting on what properties to sell, what rents up, what things to put on Airbnb, what the next prices will... So I could just definitely see a lot of different things like that in the future that are a lot closer than what anybody realizes because it's just better in every measurable way. And that's been my whole thesis to cryptocurrency, in general, is like, "Oh, you want to know if it's gonna work? Well, capitalism rewards efficiencies, whatever is most efficient will always win. And crypto is more efficient in every measurable way." And I think too, just real quick, the old model of like, going to the four-year or the eight-year university, and getting the student loan debt, and then having to get the degree to get anywhere in life, crypto's already shattered that. You could just go on any one of these protocols, and just see that they're all hiring. And basically, the whole resume consists of, "Hey, send us your GitHub, and pretty much just show us that you know how to program and then here's your six figure job that you're vested, with a five week vacation. You can wear your underwear and flip flops to go to work everyday in your living room." I mean, it's just shattering norms.

Cephii  1:56:26  
Yeah. And now, before it's assumed that everyone can necessarily code and such. A lot of people can code, there's just huge variations in what constitutes an exceptional coder and the depth versus what is more needed for more superficial engineering too. So there's huge range of activities in that, it's not necessarily... There's the McDonald's job version of a coder, and then there's the Chris Lattner designing freakin operating systems and hardware simultaneously and stuff like that, too. So yeah, there's huge range of activity you can be involved with, which is pretty cool. Let me get John on here for a second. Go ahead. John, what's up? Make sure... I think he's having trouble connecting. And then there's Phil here, can chat a bit. Yeah, Phil, you there?

Phil  1:57:26  
Okay. So just on the coding thing, it's definitely a big barrier of entry, in a way, that I like to think of it, you're accepting or ruling out a certain type of brain. People are generally pretty good at math, and they're good science, and engineering if they're good at coding. So you don't want to rule out the rest of humanity and all of their great ideas, just because they don't want to take the time in trying out coding. So I think it's important to have Andromeda, and tools like that are going to be extremely important. 

Cephii  1:57:58  
Yeah, there is instances where I want to build a website, but I don't want to fucking learn every nuance of yesterday's HTML. You know what I mean? 

Phil  1:58:06  
And they're ruling out, in the face of it, good ideas. Not ruling out, but like, you want to accept them. And you don't want the barrier to be that they don't know how to code, necessarily. 

Cephii  1:58:15  
Yeah, I mean, you could go onto almost any website today and have a reasonable experience, even for minor business, because the people have built ways to put that together. I talked about that also... Another area where it's possible to be more creative without knowing how the underlying deep... Well, even just think about an artist. An artist doesn't need to know how a pencil is created, or where the damn thing came from. They could just draw with it, right, at the end of the day. So sometimes the creative elements don't require deep technical knowledge. But one of the metaverse things that's going to be coming is, I remember back in the day when there used to be certain video games and the video games, like RPGs and things, used to come with these extra construction sets, to where if someone wanted to sit down and build a level or build a map in the video game that goes with that, and then build like NPCs and the whole deal, you could spend a lot of time and do that. Interestingly, those products were not very... They weren't very popular as products for sale on the open market. I'm having a hard time remembering which ones I'm thinking right now. 

Phil  1:59:30  
There were some famous instances also where the centralized organization just took the awesome level that someone built. [chuckle] 

Cephii  1:59:38  
Yeah, and yeah well, there's the monetization, which is a separate issue. But I think with the metaverse video game concept, what is obvious to me is the pay to create, which is what I think ultimately is coming to Terra, not only in the form of blockchain finality with games, where you build DeFi into video games and such. What's his name, Flu, talks about DeFi Kingdoms, which is his sort of... He's in that project. You've got people that have been on here and talking about the pay to play concepts, but even more so what's going to be interesting as the pay to create, so what will happen is, is just like Tundra, or one of you guys were saying about having a GitHub in the background, and you can just show your resume, what's gonna end up happening is, is I think the really, really good game content creators and level designers and if you guys are into gaming, a lot of you have some favorites in that. I think that's going to be a great way to monetize your talent, because the highest quality folks are going to have the greatest amount of impact on capital. So for example, let's say, you're a great builder as far as like, video game level design, or maybe you have a team that builds some stuff for a level, like let's say, Star Atlas, or something like that. What will happen is, is that if your previous level was amazing, or your previous creations are amazing, I think the odds that people are going to preemptively fund your system is much, much higher. And I think the way Star Atlas has been doing some of it right now, is they don't even have a functioning game yet, they're sort of in the process of simultaneously fundraising, with the sale of NFTs and this and that, like skins for spaceships, and skins for weapons and armor and suits and whatnot. So they're using it as a mixture of a fundraising protocol, to sell NFTs, but then use that, then, to work on the core elements of the game. 

Cephii  2:01:59  
Unreal 5 is an amazing video game engine, if you've seen some of the shit coming out for that. There's a new trailer, if you haven't seen it, for the Star Wars... There's a Star Wars RPG, it looks fucking amazing. It's like watching a movie or whatever, really, really immersive stuff, if you haven't seen that, really interesting. But when you can build a system where people can add things to that, like levels and spaceships and guilds and activities, I think it's more so the pay to create that's going to earn the most money, versus maybe even more so than the guilds themselves, maybe even more so than some kind of pay to play concept. Because I can imagine a pay to play concept happening. If when you're playing, you're somehow providing a service to other people in the network, right. Like, I don't know, like, you're a merchant that is active and telling a story or something like that, right. You got to be doing something in the game more than just playing a video game, in order to make money. Otherwise, what it's gonna be like is just the inflation... What's that now?

Phil  2:03:10  
The old generation was shell shocked too, like play to earn concept. My generation are like, "Oh, no, no, no. I need to get out of that." 

Cephii  2:03:17  
Yeah, exactly. The play to earn is just sort of... It can be boring too, and your connections going in and out, by the way, but it can be kind of boring when you turn it into a play to earn situation. Because then you're basically trying to earn money to use in the real world. You ultimately have to provide a service, otherwise, what they're doing is they're providing you inflationary rewards, right, there's no free money in life at the end of the day. They're going to fund that through some sort of inflationary nonsense and the coins you're getting are going to slowly go to zero is how that usually works. It'd be no different, basically turning DeFi into a video game, you go, "Wait a minute, the same problems you have in DeFi are the exact same problems you're gonna have in video game development," and you're not going to provide any more extra value unless you produce something. And I think creation kits or toolkits that allow people to build on a video game system is gonna be tremendously powerful. And I think you're gonna have massive cartels built on some of those video games. So like, for example, let's say Star Atlas. Let's say someone wants to develop a really amazing planet world with a whole separate game on it, right. You could have all the same infrastructure but have a totally different game. You could have like a Skyrim-type RPG on one of the planets and then you'd go to another planet and you have like a space pirates game or something. So you could build this world that you go from one thing to the other that's very, very different. And you may or may not necessarily need to transmit your assets across it. Your laser gun from one world may not have any relevance to your RPG world that's based on fantasy, for example, and you could do some interesting shit like that. 

Cephii  2:05:05  
But the builders, the knowledge they gained from making a level in one space could build it differently in another space and have a seamless gaming world experience where you can bring capital in and out of that game. But I know Hashed, I believe, announced on Terra that they're going to be building something, I'm not sure what but Hashed is pretty heavily funded through their network. And I'd be interested to see what all gets built this year. But gaming takes years to build something really good. So anything that you're talking about will slowly develop, but you're not going to be able to see that instantaneously. It's like when Steve Jobs came up with the App Store and said, "This is gonna change the world." It did, look at us now playing on our phones. But I don't think when everyone first got their first apps... What's that? Go ahead. You're kind of breaking in and out a little bit. But yeah, the first apps that come out and the first things that come out may not fully spark your imagination, but if you're young enough and you wait long enough, I think investments in this space really will play out nicely in the DeFi universe.

Finn  2:06:15  
That seems like a good spot to stop. Thanks for checking out part one of the two part Cephii Space chatting about Nexus and then doing some AMA stuff. We'll be back for part two. For terraspaces.org, I'm Finn, thanks for listening.