Transcript: Terra-Forming with Apollo DAO

Apollo DAO
Apollo DAO

Finn 0:41
Hello and welcome to The Ether. Today is Wednesday, March 9th 2022. This episode of The Ether is brought to you by Talis. Talis Protocol is the NFT platform for independent artists on Terra. Talis helps to provide artists with the tools and resources needed to transition from traditional arts into the NFT world. With their V1 launch coming soon, Talis will be the place to see real world art reflected on Terra. Be sure to join their Telegram and follow Talis on Twitter for updates on their roadmap, validator, and other Talis news. Find your next favorite artist on This episode of The Ether is also brought to you by Orbital Command, a community validator on Terra dedicated to educating, expanding, and promoting the LUNAtic community. Have you heard about the new Terra Invest Strategy Discord server Orbital Command spun up? If you’re looking for a chill place to chat about different LUNA stacking strategies, or looking for some alpha, or if you’re trying to find the best UST farms, or even if you just have a quick question you need answered, be sure to stop by ti es and say hi to the Orbital Command gang. Hell, I’m even in there sometimes when I’m not editing hours of Cephii Spaces. You can find me in that server chatting about NFTs and answering basic Terra LUNA questions. The link to the server is in the show notes and for more information, check out TerraSpaces appreciates the support from all our sponsors. Today on The Ether, Terraforming with Apollo DAO. Let’s take a listen.

Apollo DAO 2:10
Yo, what up, man? I might as well do the audio test early on today for Bruce.

₿RUCΞ 2:16
Sounds good. Can you hear me okay?

Apollo DAO 2:19
Yeah, I can hear you. See if everyone else can hear you. If anyone’s here, they can hear Bruce, just give like a reaction emoji.

₿RUCΞ 2:28
Throw me a thumbs up if you can hear.

Apollo DAO 2:30
Damn, Brian, I got rugged. Alright, cool.

₿RUCΞ 2:32
Cool. I’m coming through okay? Sounds good.

Apollo DAO 2:33
Yeah, yeah. I figured we’d figure that one out in the beginning this time because I figured it always happens. [chuckle]

₿RUCΞ 2:40
It always does. Mine seems to be the worst. But yeah. Thank you everyone for joining early. We’ll just get everyone in, give everyone a few minutes and then we’ll begin. Thank you very much.

Apollo DAO 2:43
Yeah, I might grab a drink real quick before we get started too.

₿RUCΞ 2:52
Got to stay hydrated.

Apollo DAO 2:54
It’s a major key bro. Major key, especially with LUNA mooning. You always gotta stay hydrated just to keep you sane.

₿RUCΞ 3:00
It’s been a big day for LUNA.

Yunt CMO 3:02
Hey, what’s up everybody? Can everybody hear me?

₿RUCΞ 3:05
Oh, yeah, I can hear you clearly.

Yunt CMO 3:08
What’s up, Bruce? How you doing, man?

₿RUCΞ 3:11
I am great.

Yunt CMO 3:13
Sup, how you doing ,man?

Apollo DAO 3:16
Chillin. I just was making a nice coffee real quick. I’m back.

Yunt CMO 3:19
Cool. Cool. Cool. Cool. I’m ready whenever you guys aren’t. I don’t know if you guys want to give a few minutes to everybody straggling in.

Apollo DAO 3:26
Yeah. I think… I mean, probably good to kick it off soon here. I think it’s recorded either way.

₿RUCΞ 3:31
Yeah, we ready to go.

Yunt CMO 3:35
Awesome. Alright, so same as always, I guess we’ll just start with a quick dev update kind of, you guys can gloss over the update you guys released earlier this week, a few days ago, which I thought was really good, really in depth, which is something I always appreciate about you guys here, kind of transparency on what you guys are working on and kind of keeping the whole community updated. So yeah, let’s just start with the dev update from either one of you guys if you want to kick it off.

₿RUCΞ 4:06
Yeah, I can kick that off. So I think the last kind of week or so… Well, one of the main things is we’ve started the audit process on veAPOLLO, which has kind of mentioned previously is based on the vxASTRO code. So it’d be great to kind of get that all audited and all out. And I think it’s gonna it’s going to be one of the big changes really the kind of thing I’m probably most excited about is the enabling of governance on that side. And I think we’ll really see… I think it’ll kind of add a lot of benefits, but I think especially in terms of stuff like the warchest, we’ll just we have to kind of cover a lot more ground, we kind of get a lot of exciting things coming in from the community. So I think the more that we can kind of pass it over, that’ll be great, and it’ll be great for kind of just having that all ready to go.

Yunt CMO 4:56
So kind of just going off that are you guys planning to have… If you guys want to let the community know, are you guys planning to have full decentralization right off the bat? Are you guys planning to kind of ease into it, kind of have team-centric… Or try to have team-centric proposals, things like that? How are you guys kind of thinking of that?

₿RUCΞ 5:17
Yeah, so I think it will be, I guess, a little bit of a mix between those. So I think the thing that will be most focused on is making sure that the proposals have all the information that’s needed, and are kind of… There’s no bad proposals coming in. And then when the time it’s submitted for voting, that they’ve been checked, and they’ve been approved. But I think the process around that would be that anyone within the community will be able to create their proposal and suggest it and then we might work with them, or the people from the community can work with them to make sure that it has all the required information that it’s feasible and possible. And then go towards the governance process. And then when that’s working smoothly and well, I think we can keep working on further decentralizing that into being purely community-driven, and community-created.

Apollo DAO 6:12
Definitely looking for, I guess, you can say, more contributors and more, I guess, participation once we launch the governance, but I don’t think that it’s not… I don’t think it’s gonna be like, launch governance, and then the team is just like, “Alright, well, let’s just see what happens.” I think that it’ll be like… We’re definitely looking for it to be somewhat of almost a good joint governance venture, I guess you could say, where the team is working closely with a lot of these core contributors and holders to try to really refine all of these governance proposals and making sure, like you said, everything’s actually technically possible, make sense from a financial point, if it’s a warchest proposal. So I definitely think that there’ll be a lot of joint governance work between the team in the communities kind of, I’m hoping that we can start it off like that, and then expand from there.

₿RUCΞ 7:13
Yeah, definitely. And I think also, we’re gonna have… We’ve got locked on our roadmap from the development side that we’re still working on and looking to get out, which again, we’ll go over a little bit more details. But I think those will obviously still remain our priorities, even once governance goes live, but more and more the direction of the developers and where our development resources go will also be directed by the governance and token holders as well.

Apollo DAO 7:43
Yeah, so I think it’ll be… It’s definitely more of a transitionary period from opening governance to working with the community on it, and then I think eventually once you have enough templates in order and stuff like that, you’ll see with a lot of the other protocols where, then community contributors are coming in with full proposals on all this stuff. So definitely interesting… It’s going to be a interesting experiment, at least. I’m kind of excited for something new.

Yunt CMO 8:17
Yeah, man, I think we’re all very excited to kind of see where the community takes things, excited to have… I mean, one of obviously, the larger use cases of the tokens… Or of the token, and so I think that we should see some nice price action, hopefully. And, yeah, man, it’s been a long time coming. So we are all super stoked for it.

Apollo DAO 8:40
Yeah, it’s gonna definitely be pretty dope. And I’m definitely excited to because then it will open up the possibility for our development fund also. So we have, obviously, our development fund. And then we also have the Do Kwon grant, as we call it, where he donated his tokens that he had back to us, and was just like, yeah, you add these to basically a dev fund type role. So I’m really excited to kind of start deploying some of the development fund and really scaling. That kind of helped scale the whole business model, as well as definitely would be really interested in like you were saying, obviously, we need to go through the correct process of… We’re going to rewrite a lot of the contracts, kind of like a refactor. Basically just clean up a lot of the code and make it well documented, all that stuff and work towards also getting a license and then open sourcing, which is definitely something key for us. I think that’ll probably be able to come along rather sooner, right after we clean up all the code and get everything launched, and the product is actually built out enough to where… And audited by a few sources, then we’ll look to move towards open source, open governance, which I think will bring a whole new world to Apollo. So pretty excited for both of those.

Yunt CMO 10:09
Awesome, man. Yeah, me too. Me too. Okay kind of moving off of the Apollo, super stoked to have that audit started, going over to Mars in the leveraged yield farming. So obviously they launched this past week, they have a few pairs up, kind of wanted to hear what your guys’ thoughts are behind that right now, what pairs you guys want to see whitelisted, what you guys are going to be applying to have whitelisted and kind of just general thoughts.

₿RUCΞ 10:42
Yeah, so yeah, I’m really excited about the launch of Mars. And I think the contract to contract lending, and the whole Fields of Mars really brings a whole new ballgame to Terra and to Terra farming as well, so really excited to see that. So I think to start with it is definitely going to be pretty conservative in terms of how much is available to be lent. So I know on their own platform at the moment, I think they’ve pretty much hit the limits on all three pairs, I believe, already, which is pretty impressive and kind of shows the demand there. And I think that’s just going to be kind of slowly opened out and slowly increased. So it’s definitely to start with it’s going to be the major pairs. So there’s going to be kind of a minimum amount of liquidity required before pairs can be added. And then I think that will be increased over time. So yeah, I think it’d be the large ones with the large amount of liquidity start with and then look to to add more and more. So definitely going to be the large UST denominated ones that we have as well, but also at the moment working on just kind of finalizing the stuff needed for the LUNA pairs, so stuff like stLUNA-LUNA, and bLUNA-LUNA potentially, it depends on how that all pans out. I know that they’re looking to move most of it to stLUNA. So yeah, I think that’d be kind of a really interesting one that you’ll be able to borrow LUNA, you’d be able to leveraged yield farm that LUNA pair, and then that gives some interesting yield opportunities both for people depositing LUNA into Mars, but also those looking to farm that stLUNA pair as well.

₿RUCΞ 12:27
So yeah, so I think at the moment it’s over 20%. So that could be another… It could actually be one of the higher yielding LUNA sources just from depositing on Mars, which is obviously then going to generate a lot of interest. And I think we’ve really seen this with other leveraged yield farming platforms on other chains, so Solana and Ethereum, it all becomes a circle feeding each other, the more leveraged yield farming there is more there is demand for borrowing, which puts rates up. And so yeah, I think it’d be really exciting to see how that plays out. And I think we’re also excited to also have some MARS tokens as well that we got through the lockdrop. And we’re going to be staking those as xMARS, so we’re gonna benefit from not only providing the leveraged yield farming platform, but then we can also be on the other side. So the more other yield farming leveraged platforms there are utilizing Fields of Mars, we’re still benefiting from those and yeah, benefiting from the overall ecosystem.

Yunt CMO 12:39
Awesome, man. Yeah, love to hear that. I cannot wait for xMARS and xASTRO to go live. It’s going to be an insane printer for the warchest, which is going to be super dope. And kind of both, hopefully, coming up here pretty soon. Awesome. Do you want to add anything to that?

Apollo DAO 13:52
Oh, yeah, I’m definitely excited for Mars too. I started using it, of course, right. Leveraged yield farming, you’ll find me in there. But yeah, honestly, it’s a really great product, I think, the whole… Basically a credit protocol. And then yeah, basically what he was saying, you have to start with the really deep liquidity pools, so you’re probably looking at… If you were to filter, say whatever, like Astroport by total TVL of each pool, that’s probably a pretty general order of which pairs you’ll probably see, just because, like I said, there is liquidity requirements. So some of the lower liquidity pools probably won’t be added for a while. So I definitely think that it’s going to be interesting to see how much TVL and how much degenerate farming goes on. And I think that once we get some different pairs and stuff like that, I think Mars will grow to… Personally, I think they’ll be one of the top lending protocols and all of DeFi, is kind of my opinion on where it can go, especially when it’s heavily based on LUNA and UST. It’s just those are… Obviously TVL, if LUNA is… If you have LUNA in your platform, your TVL shoots up when LUNA shoots up. So I think that you’ll definitely see, I think, Mars up there as one of the top DeFi protocols. So being a staker within xMARS, and kind of, I guess, technically underwriting the risk with the xMARS slash, I think that it’s kind of… Yeah, no, it’s definitely a really good place for Apollo to be since we’re offering a lot of some of their credit lines and stuff to users. So definitely excited about the Martian Council. And also providing the uncollateralized loans through the Apollo platform too.

₿RUCΞ 15:48
Yeah, I think also it’s really interesting the way that Mars has done this. So our leveraged yield farming platform, and I assume the other ones as well, are going to be heavily built on this stuff that the Mars team has actually built themselves, and then have made available. So rather than trying to hold the market, they’ve made it accessible and easy for other platforms to integrate. And I think that’s gonna bring a lot of benefits to them rather than trying to have a closed off ecosystem and trying to hold… Trying to do everything themselves, they’ve looked at ways and expand that by working with other protocols. And I think we see this a lot on Terra, and I think it’s really good to be part of. And I think the other thing for me is, were only kind of seeing LUNA and UST available there at the moment, but there’s definitely going to be potential for adding other assets in the future. And I think that will then also have a pretty interesting effect on the way that you can yield farm as well, whether you’re looking to reduce some of the risks, so you might be supplying the UST and then borrow the other asset. So I think there’s lots of future things they’ll be able to add as well. And I think that the more vaults and more farming opportunities come and the more applications there’s going to be for Mars as well. And I think we’re only just beginning to see all of really the DeFi primitives coming to Terra, but already Terra is one of the… I think it’s the second highest in terms of TVL. So I think once all these kick in and it’s… Yeah, I think we’re gonna get started, still early kind of thing.

Yunt CMO 17:26
Yeah, man. Yeah, I feel like right now is kind of that time where you can really start to see a shift happening with Andre rage quitting on Fantom and everything. I think a lot of new users are starting to come over to Terra and that’s definitely apparent through Astro’s astronomical volume and things like that.

Apollo DAO 17:45
Yeah, I’m definitely pretty hyped too, because obviously, with the minimum liquidity requirement involved on Mars, that’s where Astroport will play a big role as well for… Say, if you want to get something listed on Mars, one route would be to potentially use ASTRO governance, and whatever, bribing, or whatever, however you want to work it out to get these pools boosted, getting them boosted, withdraw more liquidity, more liquidity would then… That could give you… That can get you into their requirement for Mars. So, I think we’re gonna start to see this, basically, interoperability between different protocols that kind of, like you said, basically, “Alright, we need more liquidity to get access to our waitlist on Mars, how can we get more liquidity?” One way would be to try to lobby to boost your rewards on Astro. And I can see a lot of interesting plays like that kind of panning out. So I definitely think that we’re definitely in the earlier days of Terra DeFi. So trying to kind of continue building Apollo in the middle of a lot of that interoperability and how we can benefit our users by kind of putting some different puzzle pieces and Legos together to make a more, I guess, efficient product for everyone by using other products to enhance our’s as well.

Yunt CMO 19:14
Oh, man, if only there were a DAO that was $15 million market cap that’s been hoarding all of the ASTRO. I wish, man, I wish. [chuckle] Yeah, it’s awesome to see that play out exactly how we had envisioned, how you guys had built it and envisioned it too, which is super exciting. And I totally agree, we’re early days in Terra DeFi, so I think we’re going to be a power player up there. Alright, so moving on from that super exciting stuff, if you guys just wanted to touch on the recent CFE, if you guys want to just give some numbers.

₿RUCΞ 19:49
Yeah. So we’ve now got two CFEs running, both Deviants’ Faction and Terrapins as well. So interestingly, this is the first time that we’ve launched two CFEs simultaneously. So we’re definitely pretty interested to see how they worked out, whether capital moved from one to the other, or whether it was pretty sticky. And I think what we’ve seen is it’s pretty sticky and both these platforms we’ve done, both Deviants’ and Terrapins have done great jobs in bringing and driving their community, and really engaging with it that way. And both of them got over five mil, So I believe Deviants’ has got just over five mil, and then Terrapins I believe has six or seven mil. And both farming it 75%, 80% APRs, and getting access to the these tokens before release. And yeah, I think the real aim has always been to, one, give community access to these tokens at the earliest point possible, two, remove the need to purchase these tokens, so kind of make them accessible to more people and, three, really benefit the token holders of other tokens as well. So yeah, I think we’ve been really pleased with how they’ve been working out so far, and they’ll keep keep ticking along, keep farming. And then it’s been good because we get a… In terms of… We take a performance fee from these and then get that returned in UST and LUNA. And so having a constant trickle of LUNA coming into the warchest over the last month or so, it’s been pretty beneficial. So yeah, keep trying to accumulate more LUNA and hopefully it doesn’t pump too quickly, kind of thing. But yeah, I’ve been really pleased with those and I think there’s gonna be more that we can add to those as well. Maybe in the future, we could even combine the leveraged yield farming with the farmers market. I don’t know, there’s gonna be… There’s definitely much more that we can do with these. And we’ve been pleased with the response that we’ve seen so far.

Yunt CMO 22:00
Awesome, man. do you guys have any figures on what kind of revenue is coming back through these two CFEs?

₿RUCΞ 22:08
Yes, we get… So a 10% performance fee. So it’s a couple of hundred k per year, so not huge amount, but it’s… Yeah, I think it’s a good balance between… Yeah, a good balance that’s… New revenue taking in and as we’re getting it in LUNA, the increase in price of LUNA has really driven up the revenue we’re actually getting. So

Apollo DAO 22:37
Yeah, it’s nice too, because it’s, I guess, an alternate revenue source as opposed to the traditional vaults. So generally, the Anchor vault is usually the most popular in the community farm. So a lot of the liquidity is concentrated in ANC-UST, in those vaults. I mean, it’s just like, obviously, a really popular vault either way, so a lot of people use that and I know on the Deviants’, I think the farmer’s fee would equate out to… I think it was in, yeah, around 100,000-150,000 of you UST value profit, but 25% of that is going to be in LUNA. So it’s kind of hard to do the exact math just because… Basically each time that these vaults compound, 25% of the farmer’s fee goes to market buy LUNA, like a steady DCA, it’s not a lot at once really, because it’s like each one of these transactions is like… The larger vaults on the CFEs is usually around $200-$300 performance fee for us. So around there, 25% give or take, depending on the price of LUNA anywhere from a quarter of a LUNA up to one or two LUNA for when that compounds and it’s compounding two to three times a day so you can do the math. It’s kind of like you’re getting, basically, a couple thousand of profit as well as the LUNA, which when we first started the CFEs was, whatever, $50s, $60s. So then the increase in LUNA also factors in. So I think that is a pretty decent revenue stream and it’s also offering a pretty good service that people are definitely interested in using. So it’s kind of a win-win for Apollo because the warchest is earning, basically, a profit off of this as well as the users of the other tokens can do, I guess… Not principle protected necessarily, but a lossless investment in terms of your LP position.

Apollo DAO 24:58
Obviously the US dollar value can fluctuate. So I think that it is kind of a good win-win, which is kind of why I like it. It’s a interesting product and almost like an accidental one too. We kind of just did it for ourselves and then figure, “Oh, you know, we can probably offer this for other people.” So it’s been a little bit of an experiment that we’re trying to really standardize it a bit. And make it a little bit smoother of a development process where we’re basically cloning repos and launching and more stuff like that. So definitely, we’re looking to move it to something, I guess, more scalable. But for right now, we’re still figuring out exactly what that whole product is going to be. So I’m hoping that we’ll probably go to governance votes once we do, if we accept or decline based on governance vote, I assume probably.

₿RUCΞ 25:50
Yes, I ran the numbers quickly. I believe it’s bringing in about 75k per month, but as anon more adequately than I put, yeah, it’s also… We’ll be able to get this price appreciation of LUNA and then we can then use that LUNA, or the UST to start any more revenue on that as well. So yeah, multiple revenue streams.

Yunt CMO 26:11
Yeah, man. I hate to say it. I love everything Delphi does, of course, but the CFEs were the original, the OG lockdrops for the people. So I think you guys definitely started something really good there that will continue to become more popular. And like you guys said, super useful for the users, don’t have to worry about getting botted out or anything like that, they have the upper hand, which is not that… It doesn’t happen that often. So it’s super nice, man. That was one of my favorite things about your guys’ token launch as well. Cool. So moving on in the dev update, is there anything else you guys want to add before we get into warchest details and how that’s doing and how the numbers look there? Is there anything else you guys want to add in the developer update?

₿RUCΞ 27:03
I guess the only other couple of things, so as I’ve kind of mentioned, the Convex model is also progressing pretty well. So we’ve done a lot of the base work for it, and now getting more into the weeds and sorting out the final details. And then I think once the Mars platform release, the initial implementation of our leveraged yield farming platform is done, we can then put a lot of focus on to this. And I think this will be something we’re really excited for. And obviously, initially it’s gonna be focused on Astroport, but I think there’s also a lot more potential within Terra to implement stuff like this. And, yeah, I think we’ll see a lot more projects implementing similar tokenomics to Astroport, especially once it’s all open source, and they can also see the benefits of this. And then obviously, I think these kind of models, they don’t necessarily suit everyone, not everyone wants to kind of lock up their tokens for long term. And I think that’s very understandable within DeFi. And I think this is kind of one of the main reasons that I am such a fan of the Convex model is it gives people different abilities. If they don’t want to lock up their tokens but still want the yield, they can do it through a Convex model, and then something like Apollo can benefit from that, and then we can also pass those benefits on to our users as well.

₿RUCΞ 28:30
So yeah, I think that’d be something we’re looking to get out as soon as possible and trying to align that with the xASTRO coming out as well. And yeah, I think the only other thing is really work on removing our dependence on TFL infrastructure. It’s great that they do provide this and it makes it much easier to get all set up. But yeah, trying to move away from that as much as possible, run our own nodes, run our own mantle server, and everything like that. And then in addition to that, I think the big thing for us is really speeding up the Apollo site as well. So the more votes we’ve added the more data we have to pull in, so working on ways that we can make that all a little bit more efficient in terms of the loading as well. So yeah, I think there’s things that are happening on the surface, and then also things that are happening behind the scenes to keep improving the platform as well.

Yunt CMO 29:31
Yeah, awesome. I feel like it’s just gonna be so many cool things dropping at once. So super excited to watch that happen and be able to use everything that’s dripping, and yeah, finally have a Convex model on Terra. That will be super fun man, super excited to watch that. Alright, cool. So let’s get into the warchest updates. Of course, as we have all seen some of the Terra ecosystem price action over the past few weeks, it seems that Apollo and LUNA are bear market survivors, which is pretty dope to see. The warchest has obviously grown quite a bit, which is also pretty cool to see. So if you guys just kind of want to get into that, and what it means for Apollo and the token, things like that.

₿RUCΞ 30:17
Yeah. So yeah, it’s been pretty busy for the warchest over the last couple of days, or couple of weeks, I guess. So the two major moves have been depositing the 1 million UST into Mars, which I think netted us around 290k MARS tokens, which we’re then going to be able to use to, as we said earlier, stake at xMARS and have access to the governance, also have access to the fees, and also be able to… Yeah, just be part of that growth. And I think we’ve really focused on the revenue generating assets, what we believe are going to be the high revenue generating assets. So looking at everything from Astroport, which I think in terms of fees, I think in terms of their fee distribution wallet, it’s now considered to be over 8 million, which it was when I last looked, and I would have thought with the LUNA price rise, it’s probably gone up considerably. So yes, we’ve been looking at ways that we can get access to lots of different revenue streams that are going to keep bringing revenue into Apollo DAO without having to purely be reliant on fees.

₿RUCΞ 31:32
And so the other one that we’ve moved into this week as well is Prism. So we’ve deposited 5,000 LUNA, or yLUNA into the Prism Farm. And last time I checked, it was just below 50% APR on Prism, which for LUNA staking it’s pretty damn impressive. Not sure how long it’s gonna last or be that high. But yeah, I think it’s kind of a great opportunity, having the exposure to LUNA, also being able to farm PRISM tokens. And the PRISM rewards are pretty substantial as well. So I think they’re 30%, 40% APY on the xPRISM. So we gotta wait 30 days until we can start claiming those, but we’re currently getting it… Last time just over 1,000 PRISM per day from our PRISM farming, so then we’re gonna be locking those as soon as we have access, and using those to further boost our yLUNA farming as well. And this is going on for a whole year as well, so there’s plenty of time to accumulate these PRISM tokens. And then again, that’s just another source of revenue. So yeah, I think in combination of everything we’ve got at the moment, ranging from the Apollo LP, the Astroport LP, and our LUNA staked, and our aUST, we’re looking at over 30% yield, I think it’s like 35% yield, or APR, on our holding.

₿RUCΞ 32:44
So yeah, I think one of our things is really been that we want to match the inflation of the Apollo token with the growth of the warchest. So not only are we going to do this through collecting fees for distributing Apollo, but the higher yield we can get on our current assets, the better. And I think, well, this is before we even have stuff like Astroport on Mars launch. Once those launch, one of our main holdings is obviously Astroport tokens, I think we now have over 2 million Astroport tokens, so once we can get access to being able to kind of max lock those and also get all the yield from that, I think that’s going to add a lot.

Apollo DAO 33:46
I think it’s 1.3 million tokens. I think it’s worth 2 million USD right now. Sorry to interrupt. I check every day before I check my emails. [chuckle]

₿RUCΞ 34:00
Yeah, yeah. So again, that’s gonna be something we keep accumulating. We’ve also got the… We’re getting the Astroport rewards from our Apollo LP as well. So yeah, I think it’s… We’ve got quite a large number of revenue streams already and going to keep looking to expand that and also reduce our reliance on one source, and obviously the crypto market is… Well, I think pretty damn volatile. Yeah, and I think it’s always going to be like that but I think more and more we’re seeing certain sectors perform well when other sectors are struggling, so I think the more different places we can be getting revenue from the better. And I think stuff like DEXes they see constant revenue and constant yield whether it’s a bull market or bear market. Obviously it’s going to go up or down, but yeah. Especially with Astroport, it’s made a pretty high level of APR so kind of really excited for their revenue sharing to come out.

Yunt CMO 34:59
Yeah, man. Me too. Me too. It’s going to be only good things for the warchest. I mean, actually, it’s really nice to have something Apollo, because when you inevitably as a single user don’t have the balls to max lock everything, you can just buy Apollo and chill, which is super dope. Because the DAO kind of has the freedom to max lock and earn all of this crazy APY through multiple different streams, all flowing back to the token holders. So yeah, man, very excited, very excited to watch that come out.

₿RUCΞ 35:34
Yeah, I think it’s definitely interesting, going from being a more personal trader, where you can be pretty nimble, pretty quick, get in and out of things. Whereas the mantra or the idea behind the warchest has definitely been… It’s like a much more of a giant ocean, you can’t turn it too quickly. But it also gives you the freedom to have a much longer term timeline. So I think our Astroport accumulation speaks to this. Whereas we saw that it was… How much TVL it attracted, we assume that… Or not assumed, made the estimation that because of the amount of liquidity that it had locked to the platform, it was going to be the trading place to go to. And based on that, and based on the trading volume that was going through TerraSwap and stuff like that. Previously, the fees are going to be pretty substantial. So it made it a pretty easy decision to start accumulating that. And I think we’re starting to see some of the benefits of that. But I think it’s still… Like I said a few times already, it’s still very early days on stuff like Astroport. And I think maintaining over 300 million, and almost getting up to 600, 700, 800 million on certain days, it’s been great to watch. I was a big Astro bull, but it’s definitely blew my expectations out the water in terms of volume. So yeah, really looking forward to seeing how that grows. And I think that this is still only their… Obviously, they’ve got the normal swaps, they’ve got their stable swaps, but I think we’re also going to see more and more different kinds of utility come to Astroport, and the different kinds of swaps. So looking forward stuff like tripools, and stuff like that. And yeah, lots more utility coming. And I think this is going to drive a lot more interest into it as well.

Yunt CMO 37:24
Yeah, man, I was actually extremely surprised as well, to see that it was in the top handful of DEXes in terms of volume. I was super surprised to see that. I mean… Yeah, so super exciting.

Apollo DAO 37:37
I’m the only one that wasn’t surprised. I wasn’t.

Yunt CMO 37:40
Yeah, I mean, I feel like also a large part of that is just the insane strength that LUNA has showed too and kind of having that paired with UST is also fairly attractive. And I don’t know, I just think that there’s a lot of really compelling reasons as to why Astroport has been performing so well and probably why it will continue to perform super well.

₿RUCΞ 38:06
Yeah, I think I’m mostly pretty excited for all the… I think there’ll be more stable swaps coming as well. So I think it was Luke who posted about it the other day in terms of they’ve already got wrapped USDC, so I think it’ll be pretty interesting when or if they started getting ASTRO rewards, and it may become… Because obviously there’s people that want exposure to non-UST, so it might be some interesting new yield opportunities on those, and then also getting the stuff like Kinetic tokens as well, or kUST. So I think we’ve kind of seen from Curve how popular stable swaps and stable farming can be. And I think this would only be beneficial for Anchor as well in terms of maybe taking some of the strain off that, maybe these stable swaps might not be able to offer 20%, there’s going to be a different risk profile as well. So yeah, and I think if they start having a good yield, then you’re going to start getting wrapped USDC listed on Mars, or stuff like Edge as well. And then that’s just going to be more yield sources and then we can maybe start looking at having different vaults as well and stable vaults and stuff like that. So yeah, I think lots to come.

Apollo DAO 39:19
Yeah, I think it would be… The Wormhole USDC-USD pool is pretty interesting. Other than, like you said, basically the fact that Anchor… That’s the difference between, I would say, something like Terra and Ethereum, where on Ethereum you have Curve with a ton of these different stable swap pools, whereas with… They all have more smart contract layered risk, because you’re basically interacting with more contracts, whereas with Anchor, that rate nullifies that whole, I guess, the stablecoin swap attractiveness. So that’s where I think that the… One, the liquidity would definitely have to be pretty high because that would be the best way to swap between USD to USDC, because it would just be like, whatever, $1 fee to swap from UST to USDC, and then you could send it back through Wormhole if you wanted to bring it back to Ethereum, all for relatively cheap. But yeah, that pool is gonna need a ton of liquidity. And then that’s the only thing that I see is… Even if you get the boosted ASTRO rewards on it, you might be able to get it to around 20%, maybe 20% plus, but I think that that pool, it definitely is going to need some… Probably outside help with liquidity, I think, for that one to work. But it is definitely interesting to see if any of these stable swap pools can get up above the Anchor rate, because then obviously, if it does get above the Anchor rate, more liquidity will come and then it’ll probably suck that back down below the Anchor rate. So it’s kind of hard to compete with a fixed rate, I guess, is the only thing that I’ve been looking at.

Apollo DAO 41:03
But yeah, I think maybe in the long term, something like that could have a higher rate than Anchor, or if Anchor ever does reduce their rate, then that can kind of take over as… Like you said, a different risk profile, but also you have the Wormhole risk, the Astroport smart contract risk, and all of that on top of where you could just be in Anchor. So I definitely think that’s an interesting problem that’s kind of unique to LUNA where Anchor kind of nullifies a lot of the stable swaps. So it is almost not attractive to use anything but UST, which is good, but for the purpose of, I guess, swapping between other stables then sometimes the Anchor rate can nullify that, but I guess we’ll just have to see it play out.

Yunt CMO 41:52
Yeah, man, and I think increase in stable swaps pools for native UST is also, of course, good for the peg and things like that. So yeah, that’ll be very exciting to see happen. Yeah, man, Astro is gonna be a killer, and I’m super happy that you guys were keen, super, super early on to just buy as much as you could. I honestly wish that it would have stayed at, whatever, like 70 cents forever. But you can only accumulate so much, I guess.

Apollo DAO 42:24
Yeah, I mean, we do it from the dollar cost average approach. So it was definitely pretty entertaining to watch a lot of those buy orders going through at 59, 60 cents, that area. That was when I was sitting back just like, “Dude, I feel like this is illegal, almost,” or something. I was like, “This is like… I feel like I shouldn’t be able to get away with this. Why is the price of this so low?” Just based off of the TVL and the volume, and how strong the LUNA asset is. That’s when I was just like, “Dude, there’s a huge discrepancy between value and perceived value right now.” And then that was when we were like, “Yeah, let’s start. Let’s turn on the DCA bot,” and just start buying. ‘Cause we got the lockdrop, which is like you said, basically the only risk was locking our tokens. And then because of that, we were able to get a lot upfront with relatively low capital risk. And then that allowed us to just turn the DCA on and our vaults go into buying… The vault fee goes into buying ASTRO tokens. So it’s kind of like a big bootstrap of liquidity. And then a little bit of it goes into this, which will help us bootstrap more liquidity.

Yunt CMO 43:42
Awesome, man. All right. Cool. So kind of moving on to our last topic, we’ve touched on a little bit, but if you guys just want to touch on the warchest returns for itself and how much revenue it’s generating annually at this rate, and things that you guys see adding on to the revenue streams in the near to mid future, and just want to touch on some of those things.

₿RUCΞ 44:13
Yeah, so I think at the moment it’s not including fees, it’s looking at… It’ not including fees, and not including price appreciation. It’s about 2 million US dollars per year, just from the return from staking. Yeah, so that’s just from our Apollo LP, our…

Yunt CMO 44:39
And that’s not even taking into account trading fees, right?

₿RUCΞ 44:44
No, that’s not. No trading fees, or anything like that. No fees from the vaults. So it’s been pretty consistent in terms of apreciation, it seems to be about 50% coming from the vault fees and about 50% from price apreciation of the warchest and also yield. So, yeah, I think it’s about 30% average yield at the moment, and then making some estimations on what we’d get from Mars and Astro. So we just went with roughly 30% APR for Astro, I think it’s a pretty good guess, I expect it would probably be higher from max locking, and 10% from Mars with just a holding. So you’re looking at well over 30%, so 35% to 40%. And looking at over about 3 million UST or US dollars per year. And then also we’ll be adding the PRISM tokens into that as well. So if you calculate the PRISM tokens, all the PRISM tokens, we calculate that but not also calculating the xPRISM yield as well. So yeah, I think this will work quite well, because obviously, one of the hard things is how do you keep scaling this? Will it be easier to manage the warchest when it’s at this $8-$9 million range? And will it be a lot harder later on, and we’ve seen other… It can tend potentially get much harder to manage later on. But I think with these yield opportunities, it’s only going to build upon each other, we can use some of our capital to farm a token, and then that token can then generate additional yield on top of each other, as well.

₿RUCΞ 46:29
So yeah, I think we’ll keep seeing this expand. And I think… Especially once vxASTRO, and stuff like that launches, it will really boost our yearly revenue. So yeah, I think all at the moment, we’re looking at about averaging about 6, 7 million in fees, adding 2-3 million in revenue, and then also going to be looking out for more and more farming opportunities, that’s really going to help us keep this balance. That’s one thing, it’s been good to see is we’ve really maintained this roughly, or we’ve kept the market cap of the token, or the market cap of the token has remained under 50%, or remained under double the value of the warchest. And so I think it’s quite a good balance in terms of it’s got all the asset backing, but then also has these future potential opportunities. So I think that two times rate is probably pretty… Make sense to me. And I think it’d be good to maintain something like that and keep growing the warchest along with that. So yeah, it’s definitely add some interesting dynamics, I think, with stuff like… Obviously, a lot of the criticism when I first joined crypto was always, “Oh, they’re not backed by anything, it doesn’t have any inherent value.” So I think there’s pros and cons of having more of an inherent value is you’re tethered a bit more to that, but it also allows you to create much more of a solid price floor.

₿RUCΞ 48:04
So yeah, I think I’d be interesting to watch as it grows, and at the moment focusing on the bootstrapping and growing it through multiple different ways. But I think as we grow, and… Depending more and more on the token holders, what they want to do, we can then look at stuff like creating price floors, and stuff like that, and really tie it back to the token more. So yeah, I think it’d be some interesting stuff, too. I saw, for example, Olympus releasing their inverse bonds, which is pretty interesting. It’s basically a way that the token holders can get capital back but at a lower rate than the token backing. So it increases the token backing per token of the people in the vault. So yeah, again, still going back to early days, but it’s growing well, we’ve been pleased with the deployments. And I think it’s gonna be a lot more opportunities coming. And we’ve got a number of other things we’ve been farming that haven’t released yet. So the big one being Stader. So we had 5,000 LUNA locked in there, haven’t got our Stader tokens yet, but they’re coming out pretty soon. So that’d be interesting to see. And now that the LUNA we staked in there has gone to autocompounding and we’re getting… I think it’s 100, or a couple hundred, or 100 or so LUNA per month autocompounded as well. So yeah, lots of different places growing and generating yield and we’re gonna be releasing a full deep dive into the warchest. It’ll be our third deep dive, likely early next week as well.

Apollo DAO 49:43
Yeah, we had a pretty solid… I guess, the early growth rate, obviously based off our own protocol owned liquidity, which I guess, for lack of a better word, that’s kind of like Ponzi money in a way, I guess. Obviously it’s necessary and whatever, but you can’t really count that, ’cause it’s, I guess, somewhat created out of… Not thin air, but it’s your own LP. So I try not to really count that initial deposit. But the after that, which is the initial deposit was around 2 million from our CFE, plus some of the tokens. And then on top of that, that was around, I believe, in June or July, when we launched the vault. I think June was when we launched the vault. And so since June, launched the vaults, the 2 million in liquidity, from there, now it’s around… From 2 to currently sitting at 9. And that’s all based off of, like I said, it’s not any outside LPs. That’s all vault fees and community farming events, and then depositing our vault fees into the events to earn those tokens. So I think that depending on… Right now, we’re gonna see pretty rapid growth of the warchest, just because everything’s so early on that we’re getting into a lot of these really early, so we can get a large share of it. So I think that the upside on a lot of those tokens that we could see the warchest, like I said, depending on how things go. I think we can see the warchest sitting between 10 to 20 million within the next couple of months.

Apollo DAO 51:19
So, I think that based on the price appreciation, plus all the new farming events, we should be able to see… I think right from where we’re at maybe a 1.5x-2x in in the next short term, just based on the farming events and all that kind of stuff. So should be pretty exciting. And then also when we have the Yield Foundry DAO investment, which is still obviously, just showing as 250k UST. So once that goes live, we should see some decent price appreciation there as well, obviously, depending on how everything goes. But I’m always bullish on everything. [chuckle] But yeah, so I think that it is definitely going to exponential growth. But there is obviously, a linear growth model at the core of it, where it does have the stablecoin farming and the lockdrop stuff. And then you have the logarithmic growth of the tokens’ prices and appreciation. So I’m more of a log guy, so I think that we’ll see some pretty exponential growth out of Terra alts, and in return the warchest as well. So that’s kind of at least my analysis on it so far.

Yunt CMO 52:37
Anon prefers log wealth, love to hear that.

₿RUCΞ 52:42
I think the other thing that I really like is the fact that we’ve been able to achieve this growth and also benefit from different token holdings, but without having to be, I guess, predatory. So we’re not looking to selling these tokens. So it kind of makes the warchest a good part to have, everything’s on-chain, everything’s visible. But this is so many different opportunities to use these tokens as well. So, yeah, we’re long term holders, stakers, and farmers. And I think it makes us relatively immune to the larger market swings, if prices go down the warchest value may go down. But as we’ve seen it, it often just presents an opportunity to accumulate these tokens longer term. And I think if there’s a solid token, a solid project, with a solid revenue stream it’s always going to come back stronger.

Apollo DAO 53:43
Yeah, definitely. So that’s why… I think, obviously, there’s so much debate out there around the models, Treasury models now, a lot more than when we had first started building Apollo, there wasn’t a ton out there in terms of success, failures. There wasn’t a full market cycle of that. So I think now that we see that necessarily… Can a Treasury actually back a token? That’s where even I’m somewhat skeptical of that model of using the word “back the token”, because I think that to say… Our treasury backs the token more from power play than it does from actual money value. So the large shares that we have in these specific DeFi protocols, that’s kind of where I see the value is the token is backed by power, in a way. So do you have enough power to make your token worth having a piece of that power? So that’s kind of how… With the war chest, it’s like, yeah, it is a big $9, $10 million fund, depending on the day, tomorrow it could be five, but the money is interesting, and technically it’s backed by, I guess, a Treasury of money. But the power of what is held there is, I think, more important than the amount of money in it because if you have certain things… And I think those two will correlate with each other, where if you have enough power, that’s the backing of the token is that. You have a large share in these other really important things, and they affect your product. So it’s like, do you have power over things that affect your product? And can you optimize what other people are doing to kind of make your user experience better?

Apollo DAO 55:30
So I think the power of the APOLLO token is based on the fact that we can have heavy governance power in other protocols that affect our users and our use cases. So it’s kind of an interesting concept, where I think that that power of being able to offer the best service is sometimes almost more valuable than money at some… But then I think, like I said, they will correlate, and that power will basically turn into a very large amount of money, because that’s basically all that money is, is tokenized time and power. So I don’t know, maybe I just go too far down the rabbit hole when I think of the value of time, money and power. But that’s where I’ve been led on the Treasury model. [chuckle]

Tundra V1 56:15
Yeah, no, man. I totally understand where you’re coming from and in the best way possible. I see it as the beautiful love child of OHM and CVX mix, to the best possible degree. So that’s something that’s really exciting, and has a lot more use, and I think is somewhat unseen. So it’ll be like very… Or it is going to be an extremely useful token and, I’m excited for people to actually be able to unlock its full potential and have a big treasury, but also have meta governance over the most important protocols on Terra. So, yeah, man, I’m totally there with you, for sure. And then one last thing that I wanted to touch on, we kind of went over bonds, but do you guys have an outline of when you guys want to launch bonds? And kind of how that will boost protocol revenue as well?

₿RUCΞ 57:15
Yeah, so I think we’re getting to the point that we’re pretty keen to launch them soon. So yeah, I think we’ve got got several options. So the original one being Olympus Pro coming to Terra. So yeah, would be good to see that come as soon as possible. But if we’re looking to launch bonds sooner, I think we also have a number of other options. So yeah, I think it’d be something we’re looking into more and more, looking into a few different models, whether we potentially even simplify the bond model a little bit and offer more simplified bonds, to start that process off. And we’d probably originally just be looking at funding for Apollo LP. So yeah, I think this has been a pretty good revenue stream for us at the moment, it’s earning ASTRO tokens, it’s also earning APOLLO tokens. So one, I think especially once governance is launched, if we have a good stack of Apollo tokens, we can then start looking at treasury swaps with other projects as well. So yeah, I think it’s definitely a really interesting way to bootstrap a Treasury but if we would also keep them relatively limited we wouldn’t be having any more inflation, it would come from the farming reward. So it’s one way that it can… Is we would reduce the rewards going to farmers, but then also reduce the performance fee in mind. But that’s so that making the vaults as attractive or potentially more attractive, and then also having a different revenue stream of kind of accumulating our own LP and really kind of just increasing that potential for the long term trading, also accumulating Astro and Apollo tokens, and also going full circle back to the original point of Mars leveraged farming that the more liquidity we can get the sooner we can get APOLLO listed as a potential leverage vault as well. So yeah, I think that’d be a really interesting value add as well. And yeah, just different things, a little bit different as well.

Yunt CMO 59:34
Awesome, man. Love to hear it. Every time that we chat about Apollo I pretty much just kicked myself for not always copy trading the warchest and what you guys do because I’m down so much further than I would have been if I just shut up and listen for a bit. But yeah, man, that was great, guys. Super hyped to hear about all the new stuff that you guys have going on and super excited to have everything launched in succession and have the full potential of the protocol unlocked. Definitely gonna be max locking soon so super excited about that. Any anything else that you guys wanted to add on that you think listeners might find valuable in the end?

Apollo DAO 1:00:13
Never fade the interns. That’s my final comment for today.

Yunt CMO 1:00:17
Yes, ser. Never fade the intern, never fade Do Kwon because he will roast you on Twitter.

Apollo DAO 1:00:23
Yeah. I think I saw… Posted something like… It was like DoKwondo, the art of ratioing without regard for human life. Dude and I saw that and I was just like dying laughing. That last ratio was pretty brutal.

Yunt CMO 1:00:40
You got to give it to him, man, you got to give it to him. There have been a lot of LUNA disbelievers and they better believe it bro.

Apollo DAO 1:00:48
Yeah, definitely never fade Do Kwon. That’s definitely a good rule.

Yunt CMO 1:00:53
Yeah. All right, cool, guys. Well, again, as always, thanks for coming on. Always great to talk to you guys. Yeah, if anybody in the crowd is not involved in the Apollo community, go join their Discord. Get in there, get involved before staking starts and governance starts. But, yeah, thanks so much again guys. Always a pleasure.

₿RUCΞ 1:01:17
Thanks so much. Always pleasure and thank you to everyone that joined as well, always great to have you, and thank you so much.

Apollo DAO 1:01:23
Also don’t tell anyone but I opened up a high leverage short on LUNA. I don’t want to get hate from everybody but…

Yunt CMO 1:01:29

Apollo DAO 1:01:29
Yes I am not a bear but I’m short on LUNA. I shorted it at 102. I’m gonna close it but…

Yunt CMO 1:01:37
When you can’t pay rent next month, don’t come to me, bro.

Apollo DAO 1:01:39
No, I already have… I have a few… I just longed LUNA yesterday. So I have a few more months of rent. So I can probably shitpost pretty comfortably for at least two or three more months before I’m worried. So yeah, I always like to throw in a little bit of loose cannon at the end.

Yunt CMO 1:01:58
Yeah, yeah, you got to fade yourself sometimes.

Apollo DAO 1:02:00
Yeah, I got to fade myself. It’s funny because I basically took out an Anchor loan. I switched it to LUNA, and then I sold the LUNA because I had to use the LUNA to send it somewhere. So I basically took out a loan against my LUNA to then short LUNA, and then I’ll close that and then put it all back into the loan and then keep the separate profit. And then I’m actually shorting LUNA to end up with more LUNA. So it’s 4D chess, unless it goes wrong.

Yunt CMO 1:02:29
Definitely definitely not a bear. Okay, good to hear.

Apollo DAO 1:02:31
Yeah, yeah, it’s shorting to get more of it. It’s a strategy that I use quite often and sometimes get blown out. [chuckle]

Yunt CMO 1:02:40
Yeah, bro. All right. Well, just keep the warchest safe. I think that’s all we care about. [chuckle]

Apollo DAO 1:02:46
The warchest does not do any of my high leverage strategies. [chuckle]

Yunt CMO 1:02:52
Alright, guys.

Apollo DAO 1:02:54
Take it easy, man.

Yunt CMO 1:02:55
Yeah, yeah. See you guys later.

Finn 1:02:57
Thanks for checking out another episode of The Ether. That was Terraforming with Apollo DAO. Recorded on Wednesday, March 9th 2022. This episode of The Ether was brought to you by Luart. Luart is the first gamified NFT platform built on the Terra network. Luart provides a seamless minting and trading experience all while earning you rewards just for being a user. Be sure to follow them on Twitter and join the community in the Discord server for the most up to date news and announcements regarding all the hot new NFT launches, platform upgrades, and new projects hitting the secondary marketplace. Are you ready to #PutYourHelmetOn and join the movement? Find out more at This episode of The Ether was also brought to you by WeFund. WeFund is a community crowdfunding cross-chain incubator on Terra and it’s the first launchpad that implements a milestone funding release system to protect investors. All money raised for projects is deposited in Anchor Protocol and it’s refundable, and all decisions are based on community voting power. WeFund is community focused and designed to be a user friendly experience for both project creators and investors. Be sure to follow them on Twitter and join the Telegram for more information. Links are in the show notes and check them out online at This episode of The Ether was also brought to you by Glow Yield. Glow Yield is the ecosystem of Terra decentralized apps like Lotto and Creators, all powered by DeFi yields. Glow Creators helps artists and influencers give their fans exclusive perks through membership NFTs and more. Glow Lotto is a prize linked savings account with a weekly chance to win the big jackpot. Tickets are free and perpetual which means there’s zero chance to lose money. Be sure to follow Glow Yield on Twitter and join the Discord community to stay up to date with all the glowing projects and check them out online at TerraSpaces appreciates the support from all our sponsors. For, I’m Finn. Thanks for listening.