Transcript: Stake+ with Stader Labs and Orbital Command

Stader Labs
Stader Labs

Finn 0:41
Hello and welcome to The Ether. Today’s Thursday, February 10th 2022. This episode of The Ether is brought to you by Luart. Luart is the first gamified NFT platform built on the Terra network. Luart provides a seamless minting and trading experience all while earning you rewards just for being a user. Be sure to follow them on Twitter and join the community in the Discord server for the most up-to-date news and announcements regarding all the hot new NFT launches, platform upgrades and new projects hitting the secondary marketplace. Are you ready to #PutYourHelmetOn and join the movement? Find out more This episode of The Ether is also brought to you by Orbital Command a community validator on Terra dedicated to educating expanding and promoting the LUNAtic community. Visit OC’s What We Do page using the link in the show notes to take advantage of some of their other educational resources including weekly meetups to discuss Terra protocols, strategies, and concepts, the Terra Luna Intel Report on Telegram, and YouTube explainer videos on Terra concepts. You can also support their community efforts by considering them next time you’re delegating or redelegating your LUNA. Find out more at TerraSpaces appreciates the support from all our sponsors. Today on The Ether we have Stake+ with Stader Labs hosted by Orbital Command. Let’s take a listen.

Rebel Defi 2:02
Hi guys just opened up a little bit early just to see if people are going to come in and get things set up. I’m really excited to find out a bit more about Stader Plus. I mean, to be honest, I didn’t give a Stader the attention that maybe I should have. Initially I just thought the idea of… I don’t know I just like the idea of staking my own LUNA. But I think it’s potentially a really powerful product to use if we’re putting in not a great deal of LUNA in a wallet. I mean, like on my damn wallet. I’m just staking myself. And it’s not really worth me claiming the airdrops. And had I been staking through Stader then that would have all been taken care of for me. So yeah, I quite like the idea of a bit of Stader action. So I’ve just invited Stader Labs up to talk. And maybe they can let me know if there’s other Stader people here that I should be bringing up. I can see bitN8’s here. Hi there.

Abraham 3:11
Hi. This is Abraham, by the way. I manage the socials for Stader.

Rebel Defi 3:16
Okay, awesome. Pleasure, Abraham. I’m Rebel Defi on the Orbital Command account. We’ve got Edith in here as well from Orbital Command.

Abraham 3:27
Hi, Edith.

Rebel Defi 3:28
I think she would be a brilliant host.

Amitej 3:30
Anyone else we are expecting? I think danku was interested to join.

Rebel Defi 3:34
Yeah, were waiting on Zion from the Orbital Command. I think he was going to lead the questioning. And then I can jump in on that front if he’s not coming, but I had assumed he was. How many people from Stader do you think are going to be here?

Abraham 3:48
I’ll just share this out. I’ll just tweet this out. And we should be getting folks coming.

Rebel Defi 3:57
Awesome, Abraham. And I’ll just get Karma up here as well, see if she wants to say hello. Did you have… You did have something with Galactic Punks recently, didn’t you? I find it so hard just to keep up with these Twitter Spaces.

Karma 4:15
Hello, just saying a quick hi. It always takes forever for the speaker to be added.

Rebel Defi 4:21
Hi there Karma. Did you did have something with Stader recently, didn’t you? Or am I getting muddled up?

Karma 4:26
I mean, not me personally. But Galactic Punks validator got added as one of the tests to the Stake+ feature. So I guess this is something that we will also mention today.

Rebel Defi 4:37
100%. But did the Punks not have an AMA with Stader recently? Or maybe I’m just getting confused.

Karma 4:43
Not yet, but we are gearing up towards it.

Rebel Defi 4:46
Okay, awesome. Awesome. So yeah, I’m definitely excited to find out a bit more about how Stader+ works. So yeah, rather than stealing any thunder from Stader Labs, I’ll let them tell us how it works. Abraham, who else did you think was going to be coming?

Abraham 5:04
I think we have a bunch of people coming. I’m just looking…

Rebel Defi 5:11
No, sorry. I mean from Stader. Are we going to be giving you the questions? Or did you expect…

Amitej 5:19
Yeah. So from Stader it’s going to be Amit only who’s going to be answering all the questions.

Rebel Defi 5:26
Alright, so we still… Is Amit in?

Abraham 5:29
Yeah, just adding him here. One second.

Rebel Defi 5:33
Hi Amit. Are you there? Hi. We can hear you.

Amitej 5:37
Hi. Can you hear me?

Rebel Defi 5:38
I could hear you. Yep, I think so. A bit quiet but yeah, I can hear you.

Amitej 5:44
Hey, hi, guys. How are you? Thank you all for tuning in.

Rebel Defi 5:47

Amitej 5:48
Hi. Is that Shah?

Rebel Defi 5:49
Great to have you here. No, this is Rebel Defi on the Orbital Command account. I’ve got… I think that’s Zion just popped in as well. So we are all here.

Amitej 6:03
Awesome. Hey. Hi, Rebel Defi. Nice to meet you. And hi, everyone. Thanks a lot for listening. Looking forward to the conversation today.

Rebel Defi 6:15
Awesome. So I mean, just sort of standard Twitter Space AMA style, maybe get some introductions at the start, and then Zion will sort of dive into the questions. I’ll kind of be more sort of on a management role, bringing people up to speak if they’ve got questions. So yeah, anyone listening in, if you’ve got a question for the guys at Stader Labs, then that would be wonderful if you request to speak at some stage, and we’ll just take it from there. Hopefully finish within about an hour or so. So yeah, really looking forward to learning a bit more about Stader Plus. I’ll just see if Zion’s there and maybe he can take over.

Zion 6:56
Yeah, definitely. Sorry for coming in a bit late. For some reason I thought we were starting at 11:30 my time. I think I had initially scheduled the Space for that time. But then Rebel Defi may have scheduled it for 11 after that. So I apologize for that. But yeah, it’s great to have you guys on super excited about Stader Labs’ new Stake+ product. And yeah, if we could just do some introductions, maybe Amit if you want to start.

Amitej 7:26
Yeah, sure. Absolutely. So hey, everyone, I’m Amit, I’m the co founder and CEO of Stader. And most of you might be aware of the platform that we have built which is Stader. We have two products already in the market, one is the Stake Pools where you can very easily choose a basket of validators and spread your stake across them, the other product that we have is a liquid staking product on top of staked LUNA, which is LunaX that is autocompounding like aUST, as well as gives you access to airdrops. The third product that we are launching on Terra is the Stake+, which is kind of a hybrid of Terra Station and stake pools where you get to choose your own validator yet retain all the benefits of Stader products which are autocompounding, and conversion of stable stablecoin rewards into LUNA and then restaking them, as well as be able to claim all of your airdrops within a single click every week on Stader.

Zion 8:38
Amazing, awesome. And then Karma do you want to give an intro as well? Maybe she can’t hear me.

Karma 8:48
Yeah, I’m really sorry. My connection is breaking up pretty much.

Zion 8:54
Okay, there we go. Yeah, we could hear you there for a second. But yeah, if you’re just here to listen, that’s fine as well.

Karma 9:03
I will chime in once and again. For everybody who doesn’t know me, I’m Karma from the Galactic Punks. So I will just unmute myself if I have a good connection. Thank you so much.

Zion 9:16
Yep, definitely. So yeah, I think unless the Stader account wants to intro… I’m not sure who’s behind the curtain on the Stader account if they want to intro themselves, otherwise I’ll just direct it to Amit.

Amitej 9:31
I think let me also introduce Abraham. Do you want to introduce yourself quickly?

Abraham 9:37
Yeah, sure. Sure. So basically, I lead all the social and content on Stader, so all the stuff that you see there, I’m the one who’s putting it out.

Zion 9:49
Fantastic. Awesome. So yeah, we’re super excited to have you guys. Yeah, so I guess starting off, we can just talk a bit about Stader Labs and what you guys are doing. What is available to people today, and then what’s coming with this new Stake+ product? How does it benefit the users on Stader?

Amitej 10:14
Yeah, absolutely. So I kind of summarized a little bit earlier, but for the benefit of the larger audience who are probably new to understanding Stader, or new to Terra, here are the key things about Stader. One, we are a staking infrastructure or the staking infrastructure middle layer. Kind of what we envision to become is the core staking smart contracts as a service player for retail and enterprise users. What we have currently built are staking smart contracts on Terra blockchain. As I’ve mentioned earlier, we currently have two solutions already live in the market, about 6 million LUNA is staked with us across both the products. The first product that we have is the Stake Pools product. The mission of this product is obviously, one, to decentralize Terra blockchain, at the same time, enable delegators easy and convenient way to stake their LUNA while enjoying several strategies on top of LUNA staking rewards, conversion of stables to LUNA, and autocompounding. All of that is the Autocompounding strategy. We also have a strategy called Retain Rewards where you can choose to keep your LUNA staking rewards all in one place within Stader dApp so that you can claim them periodically. Yield redirection strategy on top of the redirection strategies can be redirecting a portion of your staking rewards, so Spectrum pools, Apollo pools, or potentially LUNA-LunaX pool on TerraSwap or Astroport. So, we are in the process of adding more and more strategies to it. So over the coming few months, you will see at least two to three strategies added to the Stake Pool solution.

Amitej 12:22
In addition to these strategies and autocompounding, Stake Pools also has three baskets of validators today, one is the Blue Chip Validators, second one is the Community Validators where OC is also one of the validators within the Community Validators basket. We also have Airdrops Plus basket, which are the validators that are promising to give additional airdrops who users who are staking with that Airdrops Plus basket. So these are the three baskets that are currently live. Over the next few weeks, we plan to add another basket, kind of like the power of decentralization basket consists of very small and young validators who are good performing yet are kind of in the bottom of the pyramid when it comes to the delegations, or to promote the decentralization of the ecosystem. That’s the first product that we have that you can check out on Stader Labs website, it has about 4.4 million LUNA staked.

Amitej 13:24
The second solution that we’ve launched about a month ago is the liquid staking solution, which is the LunaX, kind of like the best in class of both worlds. It enables liquid staking, while at the same time enjoying the benefits of stake pools. Let me elaborate what I mean by that. We have an underlying set of about seven to eight validators currently who we delegate to when users come and stake with liquid staking solution today. And when users take their LUNA they are going to get a LunaX. It is like an aUST type of synthetics… On top of staked LUNA that increases in value every day as we claim all the LUNA staking rewards, as well as stablecoin rewards, convert stablecoin rewards into LUNA and restake them. So if you go to and go to Liquid Staking, you will see that the exchange rate of LunaX is like 1.016 LUNA. So what that means is your LunaX is actually increasing in price every day like aUST increases in price. So the advantages of this solution is, one, you get to autocompound your staking rewards every day. Two you get to keep all of your ANC, MIR, MINE, VKR, etcetera, all the airdrops that are given to LUNA stakers. At the same time, enjoy the benefits of DeFi. Today you can actually go and provide LUNA-LunaX LP on TerraSwap. There is SD farming going on about 15,000 SD tokens are given to help LP providers. In addition to that LunaX can be leveraged across DeFi protocols. So when Edge is going live on Feb 15th, with their Beta you can leverage and use LunaX there and take out a loan in LUNA or UST. You can take out a loan in LUNA and kind of do the leverage staking strategy where you deposit LunaX, take out LUNA, stake that LUNA, get LunaX, then repeat this process multiple times. You could probably do it three times or four times and the risk of liquidations is also quite low because LunaX is very close to the price of LUNA. That’s one, and obviously you can take out UST as well.

Amitej 15:50
We are actively working with several other protocols in the ecosystem including Mirror. The contract migration on… So LunaX is already approved for on a poll to migrate Mirror contracts to whitelist LunaX. So you can you can put LunaX as collateral there and mint several mAssets, and then build a bunch of yield farming strategies on top of Mirror using LunaX. Likewise, we’re working with several other protocols, including Sigma, Anchor as well potentially when Anchor V2 goes live, to have LunaX on top of these protocols across the Terra ecosystem. We’re also working with a lot of cross-chain protocols across Solana, Phantom, to activate these cross-chain opportunities for leveraging LunaX. That’s about LunaX. And yeah, there is about 1.5 million LUNA staked on LunaX contract and we also have $100 million dollar LP that is on TerraSwap today. That’s the second product that we have launched about a month ago.

Amitej 16:55
So a lot of community members have actually asked to… Especially Cephii, had asked us to actually think in the direction of promoting further decentralization. One of the things that struck us is we have the contracts that can delegate to several validators at the same time. So why don’t we build contracts that can delegate to a single validator while enjoying the benefits of the entire stake pools. So that’s the genesis of this idea called Stake+. We have already implemented the Stake+ contract with a couple of large funds that have built their own private staking contracts, because they run their own validators. Now, we wanted to bring this to the larger LUNAtic community as well. That’s the genesis behind the Stake+ solution where initially we have a bunch of small yet very active community validators including OC, Smart Stake, GP. We also have PFC, I think we have Coinhall and a couple of other validators in the first batch that are going live with Stake+. The advantages of this is you can choose your own validator, yet enjoy the benefits of compounding airdrops as well as potential other strategies that might be built on top of Stake+. So that’s kind of summarizes the product that is Stake+, which is probably going to go live towards the end of this week or early next week.

Zion 18:31
That was actually my next question. So you’re already ahead of the game, Amit. Well, I appreciate the background and the clarification here on what Stader provides, obviously one of the best staking solutions, if not the best staking solution on Terra today. And with the new addition of the Stake+ product you’re giving the users optionality in terms of which validator they want to stake with and still get these benefits that you talked about, autocompounding, and things like that, that Stader provides. So I think that’s really cool. One question I had for you was related to the staking environment in Terra overtime. How do you see from your vantage point being so deeply entrenched in the staking environment on Terra evolving as things move forward?

Amitej 19:25
Yeah, absolutely. I think there are potentially two or three big trends that I’m observing. This is again, primarily stemming from my conversations with some of the big LUNA holders and also conversations with our active community on Telegram and Discord and Twitter. So especially when it comes to big funds, they are extremely reluctant to stake with smaller validators. So kind of the first trend that I’m actually talking about is about decentralization/how users’ staking behavior is different across retail and funds. Then we talk about some of the other trends like liquid staking and all the DeFi associated with it. The first trend that we are actively observing among the funds is one, they’re obviously reluctant to stake with validators that they are not familiar with or non brand name validators, right. But they’re slowly warming up to the idea of Stader smart contracts and the benefits that these contracts are providing to them. Because today, it’s a big hassle for them to claim all of these staking rewards that are coming out in 15 different currencies and claiming all of these airdrops because most of these funds have their own staff and the staff needs to be given the admin access to Ledger Wallet, and other security keys. So it’s at the end of the day, it’s a security hassle for them. So they’re seeing the automations that Stader is bringing to the table as an interesting thing, and they’re warming up to the idea of staking with us. So soon, we should see definitely significant amount of capital flowing through some of these funds that are large LUNA holders. And then obviously, what this means to the ecosystem is earlier, they used to stake with the brand name validators like Stake.Us, or potentially the likes of Bison Trails or Figment. Now, this capital can flow into some of the young, smaller validators that are also actively participating in the community, right. That’s a good trend that is probably beneficial to the ecosystem in the long run.

Amitej 21:45
The second trend that we are observing is about liquid staking. On the retail side, when it comes to decentralization, I think that the entire LUNAtic community is very active in terms of promoting decentralization. As you can see, a lot of retail users actually stake with the Stake Pool solution. So that kind of shows how important decentralization is for the LUNAtic community at large, which is a very heartening trend to see. Coming to the second important trend, which is what are some of the trends on liquid staking, etcetera. Here again, I would want to divide this into the user segments. Obviously, there is a huge demand for liquid staking among the retail community, especially their their affinity towards using staking derivatives like bLUNA, LunaX, even the new staking derivatives like pLUNA, yLUNA of Prism, and potentially stLUNA as well. So definitely the trend here is not new. But the important trend that I am observing among some of the large LUNA holders were, earlier, scared of the tax implications of staking derivatives, but also warming up to the concept of using staked derivatives and potentially participating actively in DeFi as well. Thankfully, I am able to convince some of the funds that have invested with us to at least take a good amount of their portfolio into the staking derivatives. So they are slowly starting to warm up to the idea of this. But obviously there is a long way to go.

Zion 23:34
Yeah, absolutely. And the fact that Stader Labs is supporting decentralization, and supporting smaller validators, I think is really important. And that was kind of the impetus behind your first solution with these staking pools was, you staked once, but now instead of staking to one validator, you’re staking to a basket of validators, right. And that kind of spurred this entire idea of supporting smaller validators in the community that need those delegations to increase their voting power to ultimately further decentralize Terra. And that’s amazing that you are talking to some of these funds, Amit, and having them consider delegating some of their stake to other smaller validators. Because I think that’s going to be a huge value add to the committee over time as it kind of bolsters that narrative of Terra, further decentralizing the network.

Amitej 24:34
Yep. 100%.

Zion 24:37
Another question I had for you, and as I go here, I have some questions obviously, for Amit and the Stader team here. But if there’s other people that are listening in and you guys have questions or you want to jump into the conversation and add anything, feel free to just request to speak and then either myself or Rebel Defi here from Orbital Command will add you in as a speaker, and we’ll get your question answered or you can jump into the conversation. But I was curious, Amit, if you could talk a bit about with these solutions that you guys have at Stader, what sort of fees that Stader’s collecting, or what is the fee structure look like from a user’s perspective?

Amitej 25:17
Gotcha. From a user’s perspective, for the Stake Pools infrastructure, where you stake with a set of bunch of validators at the same time, we charge only 3% of the entire staking rewards as Stader’s commission. For LunaX we charge about 5% of the staking rewards as Stader’s commission. The fee is going to be similar to stake pools even for Stake+, which will be 3% of the staking rewards.

Zion 25:49
Gotcha. Okay. Cool. And another question I had for you was related to governance. So with liquid staking solutions, one thing that I think about is, okay, well, if I have my LUNA stake natively on Terra Station, for instance, I’m able to vote on things for governance proposals.” But for Stader Labs, are you able to vote on governance proposals while you’re staking, for instance, using something like LunaX?

Amitej 26:22
Yeah. So there are a couple of considerations here. One is, if you… We definitely want to enable governance while staking, but we have to find a capital efficient solution for LunaX. Because there is a reason why people take out LunaX, because they want to use it across DeFi protocols. For example, if somebody is using LunaX on a lending protocol, let’s say Anchor or Edge, then how will they vote with their LunaX, because the LunaX is held as collateral, right, on say, Anchor. Now, for them to vote, they’ll have to close the loan, take the LunaX out, and then use that as a way to vote. What we’re trying to build is a capital efficient governance solution, where we’re going to take a snapshot of all the LunaX holding wallets, and then enable voting for those users who are carrying the LunaX or depositing LunaX in different vaults. So the governance is not going to be straightforward. That’s the reason why it is a little technically complex, but we will enable that in the long run.

Zion 27:34
Gotcha. Yeah, I think that’s going to be fantastic. And yeah, it does sound like it’s a challenge to enable that sort of solution while people are also obviously deploying things like LunaX, these liquid staking derivatives across different dApps on Terra, or on other chains as well, maybe in the future. Another question that I had was, I think a lot about where things are going in the future with DeFi, and I’m sure you guys do as well as you guys are thinking about your product roadmaps and things of that nature. What excites you guys the most over on your team about the feature of Stader or liquid staking derivatives in general?

Amitej 28:15
I think several things excite me, that’s what keeps me awake till like two o’clock in the night. One is this the pace at which we are building, right. So we have our contracts done on Solana, we’re going through a second audit. We have our contracts midway on Phantom, they will be done in a month. Contracts are, again, midway… Amongst a bunch of things we are also working on institutional grade staking derivatives, while also enabling private staking solutions for institutions. So these are all the things that are going on. So I mean, I know it probably sounds a lot that we are doing a lot of things, but everything is converging to staking, right. So we really want to be the AWS for staking, powering different structured solutions on top of Stader.

Zion 29:16
Interesting, so you guys aren’t just focused on Terra specifically then.

Amitej 29:21
Our first blockchain and the favorite blockchain is Terra, obviously, that’s where we chose to build. But at the same time, we want to bring a lot of these cross-chain and multi-chain solutions onto Terra and obviously build and grow in those ecosystems as well.

Zion 29:41
Gotcha. Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, long term I think pretty much everything is going to be cross-chain, so that makes a lot of sense to me.

Amitej 29:48
And think of the kinds of interesting solutions that can emerge on top of these multi-chain staking derivatives, right. One can create an ETF composed of LunaX, PhantomX, SolX, etcetera. And they can just simply deposit UST into that ETF and that automatically spreads the holdings across all of these staking derivatives, like 50% into LunaX via this validator and staking rewards, 30% into SolX, all of these, right.

Zion 30:27
Yeah, I mean the amount of opportunity that opens up from a strategy perspective in DeFi, when you start moving things like Stader across different platforms becomes really interesting and compelling. I’m very interested to see how that ends up playing out as you guys build that out on some of these other networks. And so for those people in here that aren’t already, make sure you guys are following Stader Labs on Twitter so you get the latest updates on when they’re moving forward with some of these cross-chain initiatives that they’re working on. Sorry, Amit, I think you wanted to jump in there.

Amitej 31:03
No, no, please go ahead. I wasn’t saying anything.

Zion 31:06
Okay. Okay. Yeah, no, that’s, that’s super cool. And Orbital Command, from our perspective, we’re super excited to be in that initial set to enable people and enable our delegators to get access to Stader Labs’ functionality and features without needing to delegate to a basket of validatos, they can still delegate to Orbital Command and support all the educational efforts that we do on our side. And if people want more information, there’s so many different things that… We have a team of eight people now at Orbital Command. And so there’s a lot of people, and we’re working on a lot of different things. And so if people want to get more information on all the stuff that we’re doing, and start to leverage some of the educational material that we put out, whether it be on our Terra Invest Strategy on Discord where we talk about different investment strategies, and help people with our community moderators answering some questions that people have.

Zion 31:14
Or if it’s the news, if you guys want the latest news, obviously, we do the Terra Luna Intel Report on Telegram, which is basically taking all of the high level, most important news that is occurring on Terra on a daily basis, and then disseminating that through a Telegram channel. And it’s also a channel that’s pretty active on a daily basis. So it kind of saves people time from having to go in and scroll through Twitter, even though… I use it, and I honestly still end up scrolling through Twitter just because it’s just kind of fun to do and you end up learning something. But this is a quick and easy way throughout the workday to kind of get the latest insights or announcements. And so it’s definitely something to check out. But we appreciate, Stader Labs supporting validators not only like Orbital Command, but also the other validators that you guys have in that initial set, and I was wondering, Amit, if you could talk about, for those people in here… And I see danku in here and he just set up his validator so shout out to danku. Yeah, shout out to danku, setting up his own validator, and hopefully people in here that are considering delegating some LUNA to validate or redelegating, will consider his validator because he does a great service for the community in the educational content that he puts out. And so, definitely check out his validator. And I was curious, Amit, if you could talk to, for people like danku or other validators when you guys are thinking about adding other validators into that Stake+ product so that their delegators can also get access to these amazing features that you guys provide.

Amitej 33:50
100%, already spoken to danku. The thing that I also want to chat about might be very interesting for some of the… I mean, so I obviously admire you guys for generating amazing content, educational as well as financial. Of course, you don’t give financial advice, but financial content that helps people to maximize their yield. And obviously danku also puts out great strategies on DeFi that helps people optimize their yields while being aware of the risk levels. Here is an interesting way for you to actually get rewarded for your DeFi strategies. What we are also launching is kind of these degen vaults. It’s not a degen box. It’s the degen vault, where people can actually deposit LunaX in the vault, and then there can be strategies that can be created on top of this LunaX. The strategies can be as simple as deposit 50% of LunaX on Anchor, takeout UST as loan, and then keep doing that recursively so that the yield is maximized. At the same time, take the remaining 30% LunaX, pair it up with, let’s say UST, put it on a TerraSwap or an Astroport pool, and then take the remaining 20% LunaX and enter into a strategy or Mirror. Now, there will be a time lock to the vault. At the end of three months or one month, the yield that is generated can be tranched into senior and junior tranches, and the users who are depositing LunaX in the beginning can select to choose either senior tranche that gives them a guaranteed yield of 10% on top of the staking rewards, while the users which was in junior tranche can get the upside, even off the senior tranche holders, right. Now what you can do is, as strategist, you can create these strategies, at the same time get rewarded for successful strategies as well. So this is an interesting product that we’ve already built, just undergoing audits, polishing it and refining it. That should be live in a few weeks.

Zion 36:13
Wow, there’s some alpha for you, folks, if you didn’t catch that. I thought this was the Stake+ Twitter Space today. But Amit came in here dropping some alpha for us.

Rebel Defi 36:26
Yeah, not only that, I love the one Amit talked about initially, the Edge Stader X strategy. That sounds amazing. I’m really looking forward to… So to me that sounds like… Yeah, well, from what you said, we do the liquid staking on Stader, and then take our LunaX over to Edge and then borrow LUNA and then stick it back into Stader for more LunaX. So if I’ve got my thinking right, that sounds like we can… We’re not necessarily getting more exposure to LUNA, but that would give us more… We could almost double up our exposure to the LUNA yield doing that. And I think that’s without very much risk of any sort of liquidation. I mean, I think that’s epic. So yeah, I’m definitely going to be looking into that and seeing how I can incorporate that, not just to make a video, but into my own actual investing. So thank you very much for that share.

Amitej 37:28
No problem and imagine doing it in an automated way.

Zion 37:33
Yeah, I mean, and whenever you’re adding in that automated element to things, I mean, it’s just so much more compelling for someone like me, because if you’re busy throughout the day, and you don’t have time to go in and manage things and move money around. And obviously, active management in DeFi, a lot of people focus on that, because there’s a lot of different opportunities. But Cephii does a lot of these Twitter Spaces and he talks a lot about automation, and how you can incorporate bots into different things or how you can utilize different things like the product that you guys are creating to ultimately generate yield, while also saving yourself time at the same time, which is, I think, the most compelling value proposition.

Amitej 38:15
Yeah, I think there is a lot of things that we can build. Obviously, since all of you guys are extremely active, and I really admire the way you build out content, I think this product will be a great way for you to leverage that content, not only in an educational way, but actually seeing the strategies and implementing these strategies in the degen vault is probably the best way to see some of these strategies in action.

Zion 38:45
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Let us know when you guys release that stuff so then we can let people know. And I know Rebel Defi here who’s hosting on the Orbital Command account, he’s going to be doing some videos. He stays busy with with that sort of thing. And if you guys haven’t, for those that are in here, followed him on YouTube, or subscribe to him on YouTube, definitely check him out. He does a lot of great content similar to danku_r, doing these videos where he explains different strategies, breaking things down in easy to understand format for people that are either just getting into Terra or have already been in Terra for a little while. So definitely check them out. Looks like we have RealXr Crypto hopping in here. Do you have a question?

RealXr Crypto 39:34
Yeah, can you hear me? Yeah, yeah, real quick, I haven’t really messed around with Stader too much. I think a few weeks ago I did a liquidity pool and I haven’t really checked it. But I was wondering if there’s any future plans to make the actual dApps mobile friendly?

Amitej 40:00
Yes, absolutely the mobile dApp is going live anytime this week.

RealXr Crypto 40:04
Beautiful, beautiful. Awesome. Yeah, that’s it. That’s all I got. Thank you.

Amitej 40:11
Thanks for dropping by.

Zion 40:14
Amit is a shippooor here. It sounds like every answer to every question, Amit’s like, “Yes. And also, we’re launching this,” and it just seems like you guys are very hard at work on the product development side of things. And I was curious, how big is your guys’ team where you guys are able to build and launch all these different solutions that you guys are building?

Amitej 40:40
Yeah. The team on Terra is… Terra is the largest team, obviously, I think we are overall about 10 people on Terra. And across the organization, we are about 25 to 30 people working on several other blockchains.

Zion 40:57
That’s amazing. Yeah, that’s that’s super cool. I was just curious, because it did seem like you guys are building all these different sorts of products and it takes a lot of time, even just to build one excellent product. But you guys seem to be shipping on a regular basis here. So I was also curious, Amit, if you could expound a bit on how the SD token for those that maybe participate in the farming event for SD, or are just looking into the tokenomics of SD, how does the SD token fit into the Stader Labs protocol?

Amitej 41:32
Very interesting question. A lot of users have been asking us, we will definitely do a blog post about the SD token utility and tokenomics in the future. But here is the important elements that I’m going to cover about SD token. As we mentioned earlier, even in the white paper, the token will have three major utilities. One is obviously the validators who are part of the pools, either liquid staking pool or the stake pools across blockchains will have to stake a certain minimum amount of SD tokens to be qualified to be part of the pools in the future. And then a percentage of the delegations will be equally spread across the validators then the remaining percentage of the delegations will be proportionally delegated to validators based on their SD token staked. That is the first utility of the SD tokens. Now here is an interesting thing. We want to add a social element to it. So for example, OC is a validator that has a lot of social capital, you have a lot of followers, fans who admire your content that you create on a weekly and daily basis, right. What you can do is leverage your social capital and get any SD token holder to stake on your behalf, right. Similarly, GP has a lot of social capital. They can leverage anybody who holds SD tokens to come and stake on their behalf. So that their validator gets more and more LUNA delegations, and in a way, adding more to their cash flows. So that’s something that we are also adding to the SD token staking.

Zion 43:33
So could you just expound on that a bit, Amit, when you when you say holders of the SD token are staking on a validator’s behalf. I guess I’m not understanding what that means in practice.

Amitej 43:49
Gotcha. So, let’s say you and GP are the two validators in a pool. Now, initially, both GP and you have staked 50 SD tokens and 50 SD tokens, right, that you own completely. Well, ideally, if somebody is delegating 100 LUNA to the pool, you and GP should get 50 LUNA and 50 LUNA each, right, because you have staked equal amount of SD tokens.

Zion 44:16

Amitej 44:17
But now you can actually ask any of your fans to stake their SD tokens in the same contract that you are staking so that your delegation proportion in the pool increases. So let’s say I am your fan. I stake 50 more SD on your behalf. So originally 50 LUNA is to go to Orbital and 50 LUNA is to go to GP. Now you will end up getting 66.7% of the LUNA while GP ends up getting 33% pLUNA. And GP can do the same thing with their fans who hold SD tokens to stake SD tokens on their behalf so that they increase their delegations in the pool. And by the right away…

Zion 45:04
Sorry, go ahead.

Rebel Defi 45:06
Sorry, I was gonna add, do the fans or the people staking on validators’ behalves, will they continued to receive some sort of staking reward?

Amitej 45:15
Yes, yes, of course.

Rebel Defi 45:17

Zion 45:19
Karma. Do you want to jump in here?

Karma 45:21
Yeah, just very briefly. Well, first, that is an incredibly interesting feature. But second, just playing devil’s advocate a little bit, I wonder, will there be caps to how this is distributed? Because I just can’t imagine a scenario in which a validator that has a lot of social capital could potentially then… It could play the other way around when It centralizes some of the staked LUNA to one particular validator that is specifically active socially.

Amitej 45:51
Gotcha. 100%. If you take the current state of the world on Terra, by the way, this is a feature that we are still working on. It’s not finalized. I just revealed it because I’m happy to take feedback and that’s how we build products iteratively. By no means this is a done and dusted feature. To answer your specific question, Karma, I think it’s a very relevant question. But I am a big believer in competitive economics in the long run. So even if you take today’s state of the world, there are probably at least 7-10 validators who have a very good amount of social capital on Terra ecosystem. That was only five, when we started building out Stader in the month of May or June, right. It has almost doubled in the last two, three months. If you take a one year or two year view, the number of validators with a huge amount of social capital can be as high as 30, or 40. And we want to be in that state, right. We want validators who are active members of the ecosystem to be actively contributing to the ecosystem. So I don’t see a world where the social capital is a winner-take-all market. It will definitely be at least 30, 40 validators who are competing, creating content, creating useful things like Smart Stake does, dashboards, like you guys. OC does a lot of content, you guys have raffles NFTs, you’ve created a DAO out of your own NFTs and then actively building that. So I don’t see that space becoming singled out or a monopoly emerging there. I hope that answers your question.

Karma 47:45
Oh, no, absolutely. That’s completely fair. I just wanted to add to the discussion, and I think it’s an interesting field to consider. I agree with you that the more validators are active, the more people actually consciously consider many of the aspects of staking and they are very likely to diversify among different validators.

Amitej 48:05

Zion 48:06
And so it looks like we got Marty up here for a question. And then after that, I think we’ll, we’ll close her out because we… I think, Rebel, haven’t we’ve been gone for about an hour now or am I mistaken on that?

Rebel Defi 48:18
We’ve been on for about 45 minutes just now. So yeah, if anyone else has got a question, then yeah, feel free. And if we need to fill any time, Cephii is here so we’ll be fine. Sorry, Marty, yep.

marty schoffstall 48:32
Can I go along with the last question here with some argument as well.

Amitej 48:40
Hey, Marty.

marty schoffstall 48:42
So understand that an increasing portion of my assets are going into Stader or so what you guys have done so far is fantastic, I’m looking forward to. But being popular as it were, is different than being a good community member, okay. Over on the Cosmos side of the house, there’s an interesting tool whose name escapes me at the moment, which looks at different components of validator actions, including their voting, and let’s do other things, okay. And they have kind of a fairly simple formula to grade the validators more than just being socially popular. And as far as I can tell, this piece of code is not been ported to the Terra side of the house, but it definitely deals with a multifaceted aspect of who is good for the community, more than just their social standing. Anyway, let’s just wanted to bring that up.

Zion 50:02
Do you happen to know, Marty, what variables they’re looking at for that? Because I’m interested because Flipside, I think, would be an interesting person to talk to in getting something like that implemented on Terra. And if we knew kind of what variables to look at, I think that’d be helpful.

marty schoffstall 50:20
And again, I think there was four and the one is actual participating in votes and whatever else, but what I’ll do is I’ll post the link to the GitHub, okay, on Twitter, and you can kind of take a look at the person who did it. They said, people may disagree, people may agree, this is a first shot at this, whatever else, but it is illuminating. And it may not be completely appropriate to Terra, but I think it’s a great step to think in terms of that.

Zion 50:56
No, absolutely. And I think you’re spot on. And one thing maybe we at Orbital Command can drop off the developer here from our side of things, we’ve been working on a tool that’s going to provide a lot more insight to delegators, not just for OC, but for just the wider Terra ecosystem, in terms of looking at how validators are actually voting on proposals, how often are they voting, which direction are they voting, and creating a tool that easily visualizes all of that. Kind of like what you’re talking about Marty, where it’s important for these validators that are ultimately one of their entire objectives is to vote on governance proposals on behalf of their delegators, and there’s a lot of delegators that have a significant amount of LUNA staked to them that are participating in very few, or even less than 50% of the proposals that are going up on Terra Station. And so that in our mind has to change. And we also need to start to incentivize validators to vote on proposals by making this information publicly available for people so that delegations start moving towards the validators that are active.

marty schoffstall 52:07
I looked at the code last night, and it didn’t look super complex, okay. And I actually was thinking about kind of talking my son to help me do the Rust port for it. But anyway, that’d be great if you guys engaged, and again, super job for Stader. You guys are doing a great job.

Amitej 52:32
Thank you, Marty. Thank you for being a great support.

Rebel Defi 52:37
Marty. I’m really looking forward to having some of your beers, Marty. The Anchor one looks fantastic.

Zion 52:45
Alright, so it looks like we got Swiss.UST. You

Rebel Defi 52:49
I’ve just bring them up? Yep. Swiss you’re up.

Swiss 52:53
Hey, how’s it going guys. Can you hear me?

Zion 52:55

Rebel Defi 52:55

Swiss 52:56
Yeah. So firstly, I just want to say thanks for creating that product. I’m really excited for the Stake+ feature. One question that I had is for delegators are already staking in one of the staking pools, for example, if they want to enter the Stake+ feature, is that going to automatically migrate over? Or is that something that they have to withdraw their LUNA first to delegate with a Stake+ feature?

Amitej 53:22
Yeah, the delegators have to withdraw their LUNA, Swiss, because these are two separate smart contracts. And we don’t have any access to your funds. So only your wallet can access those funds. So you will have to do it yourself. So you’ll have to undelegate and then delegate with Stake+. From our end, what we can ensure is we can ensure that you are farmed SD tokens continue to vest even if you migrate to either LunaX or Stake+.

Swiss 53:58
Okay, sounds good. And yeah, right now, for example, if I have some of my LUNA staked in the Airdrops Plus staking pool, there are three validators that we can all see, the Orion Money, Talis Protocol, and Neptune finance. So with Stake+ when that does arrive, is there going to be under the Staking Pool tab? Or is it going to have a separate tab where we can just enter the Stake+ feature and select our validator from there?

Amitej 54:26
It is going to be a separate tab.

Swiss 54:30
Okay, thanks.

Amitej 54:31
it is going to be a separate tab on the UI where once you click on the tab, you will see the validators that are… Where you can access the Stake+ product.

Swiss 54:42
Okay, sounds good. Thanks so much guys.

Amitej 54:45
Thanks Swiss.

Zion 54:47
Awesome thanks for your question.

Amitej 54:51
Cephii is also here .Hey, Cephii.

Rebel Defi 54:52
I’ve just invited Cephii up, see if he wants to say a few words. We’ve also got Edge Protocol listening in, don’t know if they’re available, but it would be… I was just looking at the Edge Twitter account and it’s got three different collaterals listed. They don’t have LunaX listed, there’s one redacted one. And I’m wondering if Amit will maybe just spill the beans on the old Edge redacted.

Amitej 55:32
Edge, are you there? Do you want to speak a couple of words about your Beta launch? Meanwhile, Cephii, do you have any words to say about your baby, which is Stake+?

Cephii 55:50
Oh, hey, guys. [chuckle] I was sort of AFK there and so wasn’t expecting to be a question but yeah, it’s exciting stuff to see ideas come into existence like that. It’s pretty cool. I’ve yet to have an opportunity to actually use the Stake+ yet. So I will be doing that the first opportunity I get. I’m already sort of staked in different things, so I didn’t actually unstake on Stader to move things yet, but I’m sure I’m gonna end up using it. Very cool.

Amitej 56:31
Amazing. Just so everybody knows, this was the idea that was inspired by our conversations with Cephii. So he kind of sparked the idea in my mind where we can bring this solution to even the retail LUNAtic audience. Before Stake+ launched, we were giving some of the funds access to the Stake+. But then with Cephii’s push we decided to build this out for every LUNAtic out there, and bring onboard initially small validators and community validators into Stake+ and kind of expand this to several other validators in the future.

Cephii 57:19
I like these interesting permutations coming off of all these ideas, like various social elements, and what danku is doing is interesting, and the increased variety of what it means to be a validator and how that implies varying levels of participation and stuff. Very interesting.

Amitej 57:45
Yep, yep.

Zion 57:47
Absolutely. So looks like we got Edge Protocol up here if you want to jump in and say a few words about what you guys are launching.

Edge Protocol 57:56
Yeah, can you hear me, guys?

Zion 58:01

Rebel Defi 58:01

Edge Protocol 58:01
Yeah. Hi, everyone. We are Edge Protocol. We are doing a money market as a service protocol. But we are going to do a Beta launch with the first money market pool on Terra ecosystem. And yeah, the few words from our end, it would be keep your eyes on Edge Twitter tomorrow. It’s going to be something announced. Yeah, I could say just like that. Yeah.

Rebel Defi 58:27

Amitej 58:28
Come on, why don’t you give out some alpha for our listeners here. [chuckle]

Edge Protocol 58:33
Yeah, I think we have already seen in Stader Twitter already. But, yeah. [chuckle]

Rebel Defi 58:42
I’m looking forward to this one.

Zion 58:44
The pre-alpha alpha. [chuckle]

Edge Protocol 58:47
I guess. [chuckle]

Zion 58:50

Rebel Defi 58:50
Does the Orbital Command have any pre-alpha alpha?

Zion 58:53
Well, we already released some on the governance tool that we’re creating for the community. So super exciting stuff coming there, keep an eye out. Definitely check out our website, That’s where the tool is gonna end up. And we’ll obviously… Keep an eye on our Twitter as well, because we’ll be releasing some announcements on there. Once that goes live, and you can check out how these different validators on the network are voting and hopefully start to voice your opinion on getting some of these other validators who might not be participating in voting as much as maybe you think they should. That’s kind of the idea with the tools, provide some clarity there for the delegators in the community and really just community members having more information at their disposal to make an informed opinion when they’re delegating their LUNA, which in our opinion is an important consideration because ultimately where your LUNA is being delegated is ultimately where people are going to end up voting on your behalf. And so it’s really important that these validators are voting on proposals. So that’s some insight there. I don’t know, Rebel, if you had anything else that you were thinking of from the alpha side for us.

Rebel Defi 1:00:16
I think we’d wait for the big man to launch that one. Yeah, definitely there’s stuff coming. Do you have any sort of parting words for us, Amit?

Amitej 1:00:24
No, I’m just extremely excited by the number of products that we’re bringing to the community, and also community’s love. And basically, I’m extremely excited about making these products available to the community and the quick feedback loops that we are getting from the community, I just love this entire process and journey. It’s been just amazing so far all thanks to our users and community members. And all of you guys for bringing amazing content and educational material to the users who can easily parse through them and learn how to use the solutions.

Rebel Defi 1:01:05
Fantastic. I must admit, I think I’ve been sleeping on Stader. I mean I’ve got a little bit in there, but just looking at the website just now and listening to what you’ve said this evening, it’s fantastic. So I’m definitely going to be cranking out some content on YouTube for what you guys have to offer. I’ve just noticed that Marty dropped in the link for that Cosmos thing he was mentioned earlier on. So we can share that a bit later as well. So yeah, thanks, Marty. Do you want to close this out, Zion?

Zion 1:01:39
Yeah, sure. So just wanted to thank Amit for coming on and giving the community some alpha on the Alpha Hour here. And also thank you guys for the amazing work that you guys are doing for the community with all the interesting products that you guys are bringing to market, the relentless stream of products that your team is pumping out as shippooors. So thank you guys for that. And thanks for coming on today.

Amitej 1:02:08
Thanks, guys. Thanks a lot for having us here. Really appreciate it. And thanks, everyone, for tuning in today. It was fantastic talking to you.

Zion 1:02:18
Absolutely. Make sure you guys follow them on Twitter, follow Stader Labs on Twitter so you can get the latest updates on all these interesting products that they’re launching. And stay tuned for the launch of their Stake+ product where you can delegate to validators like Orbital Command. And I’ll see you guys in the next Twitter Space.

Rebel Defi 1:02:35
Thanks, everyone.

Amitej 1:02:36
Absolutely, thanks. Thank you very much. Bye-bye.

Finn 1:02:41
Thanks for checking out another episode of The Ether. That was Stake+ with Stader Labs hosted by Orbital Command. Recorded on Thursday, February 10th 2022. This episode of The Ether was brought to you by Talis. Talis Protocol is the NFT platform for independent artists on Terra. Talis helps to provide artists with the tools and resources needed to transition from traditional arts into the NFT world. With their V1 launch coming soon, Talis will be the place to see real world art reflected on Terra. Be sure to join their Telegram and follow Talis on Twitter for updates on their roadmap, validator, and other Talis news. Find your next favorite artist on This episode of The Ether was also brought to you by WeFund. WeFund is a community crowdfunding cross-chain incubator on Terra, and it’s the first launchpad that implements a milestone funding release system to protect investors. All money raised for projects is deposited in Anchor Protocol and it’s refundable, and all decisions are based on community voting power. WeFund is community focused and designed to be a user friendly experience for both project creators and investors. Be sure to follow them on Twitter and join the Telegram for more information. Links are in the show notes and check them out online at TerraSpaces appreciates the support from all our sponsors. For, I’m Finn. Thanks for listening.