Transcript: Rebel DeFi Investing 3k into Terra

Rebel DeFi
Rebel DeFi

Finn 0:42
Hello and welcome to The Ether. Today is Monday, January 3rd 2022. This is a space hosted by Rebel Defi discussing Investing My First $3,000. This TerraSpaces episode is brought to you by Orbital Command, a community validator on Terra dedicated to educating, expanding, and promoting the LUNAtic community. You can take advantage of their Terra Luna Intel Report on Telegram, bringing you the hottest news and updates on all things Terra each day and every day. Use the link below in the show notes to get there. You can also support their community efforts by considering them next time you’re delegating or re-delegating your LUNA. appreciates the support from Orbital Command and the rest of the community. Now let’s take a listen.

Rebel Defi 1:28
Good morning. Good morning. Rebel Defi here, still got a few minutes before we officially start, but if anyone’s got anything they’d like to say, a pre-question, query, comment, you’re more than welcome to request to speak and I’ll add you. But yeah, the premise of today’s discussion is, what would we do if we were just starting to invest on Terra and we maybe had about $3,000? I’ve got JC with a comment. I’ll just bring you up JC. Morning. And then if you unmute yourself, JC.

JC 2:03
Oh, hey. Hey thanks for having this Space. I had a quick question before we get started. Rebel, I know you put together a video at some point about LUNAomics LUNA stacking leverage long strategy. Just curious there, maybe you had an idea is, you know he suggests like a 30% LTV. But if you borrow at 30% LTV, and then you sort of buy LUNA and that re-provid it, that actually brings you down, net, to a 23% LTV. And so do you know whether he’s saying borrow at 30%, and get yourself down to 23% with the extra LUNA? Or is he actually saying, borrow to 44% LTV, and then use that to provide down to 30%? And I think you showed the latter in one of your videos. But, wondering if you had a thought there.

Rebel Defi 3:05
Yes, right. Brilliant question, JC. That is the reason I took that video down. I don’t know if you saw the first one. Because I totally had a misunderstanding about what LUNAomics was doing. So he’s not doing that, because… And if you listen to his Spaces, I think it was the second one he did, he talks about why he doesn’t do that. And he used to do that, but in May, he was… So that’s essentially you’re looping LUNA, you’re borrowing money to buy more LUNA, to post it as bLUNA collateral, to bring your LTV down and provided LUNA is going up, that works brilliantly. But the potential problem is if LUNA starts crashing and you need to pay off some of that loan, you have no money. It’s all in LUNA. So then to unwind that bLUNA position, you’re going to have to sell bLUNA at a loss, and because LUNA is crashing, other people are going to be doing the same. So the spread to swap your bLUNA back is going to be awful, so you’re maybe going to lose 20% of the value on top of the falling price to try and unwind it. Also, if LUNA has crashed, your LTV might be up at like 50%, so then if you withdraw bLUNA to try and convert back to UST to pay the loan down, you’re gonna have to push your LTV even closer to 60% and it could just turn into an absolute disaster.

JC 4:47
Got it. That’s super helpful. So we’re saying he is actually stopping at the… After you essentially, borrow LUNA, you do not provide it but keep your 30% initial borrow, so you’re not kind of muddling the LTV. That’s very helpful.

Rebel Defi 5:03
Yeah. So I mean, I’ve been listening to those… Because the funny thing is, I’ve been… I started with Terra around in March, and I was using Mirror and a bit of Anchor. And I wasn’t really borrowing that much, because I didn’t really get it. I was always a bit concerned and worried about it, but listening to LUNAomics strategy, I thought, “Oh, I know how to do this. I borrow, I provide it. It’s gonna work out.” But it is kind of simple what he’s doing, but in a way it’s also very complex to understand why he’s doing it the way he’s doing it. I mean, anyone can borrow money. But then what my understanding what he’s doing, and I don’t speak for him, and I highly recommend his Spaces, which are on They’re all recorded. And actually, I found out you can download them to Spotify or wherever your podcast player is. But what I think he was saying yesterday, or what I took away from what he was saying yesterday, and this is what he does, not what he necessarily recommends that we do. But say he’s got $100,000 worth of LUNA, he would provide that as bLUNA collateral, and borrow 25%. And with that 25%, just buy LUNA. And like I said, don’t post it as collateral, just hold that LUNA in his wallet. And then… I mean, he does push his LTV higher than I push mine. He would then borrow another 20%. So his LTV could be up at about, what, 45%. So then he’s got 25% worth of LUNA, 20% worth of UST. And then he would take 20% LUNA, 20% UST and pair that, and go into the LUNA-UST LP on TerraSwap.

Rebel Defi 5:04
So then he’s going to be earning swap fees on that. But then if he needs to pay down his a loan, he’s got that liquid LP, he can quickly withdraw it, split it apart, pay down the loan. And that’s just using the UST part, and then only sell his LUNA if he really has to. I mean, I think it’s a really elegant strategy. And I’m gonna speak to him and ask if I’m allowed to make a video just showing what he does. Ithink it’s good for me to kind of get things clear in my head. But also just to show other LUNAtics a perfectly valid strategy. But yeah, brilliant question. Thank you for asking

JC 7:56
Oh, absolutely. Thanks for answering. I’ll let you get started here. Thanks for the answer.

Rebel Defi 8:01
Awesome. Thanks, JC. I’m just gonna bring Dr. Doscoin up. We’ve got Tobi on as well as, speaking to Tobi last night on Twitter. If you’re up for it, Tobi, I’ll bring you up. And Doctor, are you there? Doctor, did you get the invite? There he is. Tobi, you’re welcome to jump up if you’d like at some stage. And yeah, the premise of today’s call, we’re going to be talking about what would we do with our first $3,000 if we were just starting out on Terra, but we have this knowledge that we’ve got just now. So can I pose that to you, Doctor, what would you do? So I’ll just introduce ourselves. Yeah, I’m Rebel Defi. Dr. Doscoin is my buddy from Australia. We know each other because we both contribute to Orbital Command. They are our validator on the Terra network. So that’s kind of how we got together. And but yeah, we just hit it off pretty well. So we decided to try this Twitter Spaces thing and just take it from there.

Dr. Doscoin 9:13
Awesome. Thanks for the introduction there, Rebel. Mate, what a great question ey. Because obviously, everyone’s at different parts of their journey and have different amounts to contribute. And I think, first and foremost, it’s like acknowledging where you’re at financially. If $3,000 is all you’ve got to your name, then of course you want to make sure that you’re putting it somewhere strategic, somewhere that’s going to actually be as asymmetrically to the upside as possible, so that you do get a return on that investment. Nothing worse than… Particularly if it’s your first foray into investing, nothing worse than putting money into something and watch it halve, or completely go to zero. I definitely had that with my first few experiences with shares a few years ago. But you know, that’s part of the journey, you weather the storm, and you come back stronger. But I was thinking about this question earlier, Rebel, was just thinking about, what would I do if, one, I was investing for the first time in Terra, and I didn’t know anything about it, and two, what I would do if I had the knowledge that I have now, and I only had $3,000? And so I think what I’ll do first is, just go over the first one, and the answer is actually ridiculously simple. The answer is simply, I would buy LUNA and do nothing, I would simply sit on my hands. Because if I knew nothing about it, then I wouldn’t want to increase my potential risk, to lose it to liquidation or to something stupid, some decision that I’ve jumped into without knowing any better. I think quite often, there’s an attraction to trying to do more in this space. And it’s like, “Cool, where can I park my money to make more money? What pools can I provide to? What can I jump in and out of?” And that complexity, I think, that can lend itself to mistakes. And so I think sometimes it’s worth… If you are new and you are starting out, it’s like, you’re better off just sitting on your hands for a bit. By the LUNA, sit on your hands, do some research.

Rebel Defi 11:24
And obviously… Yeah, obviously, everything we’re saying here isn’t exactly financial advice. It’s just our opinion. Can I just come back in that for a moment that I saw a tweet last night from a girl, I am afraid I can’t remember her Twitter handle, but she was essentially… She did that strategy exactly as what you said, she put in less than… It was $8,000 something, so less than $9,000 this time last year, and she now has over a million dollars worth of LUNA, she literally just did nothing. So that is a perfectly valid strategy.

Dr. Doscoin 12:05
Yes, love it. Correct. And also, while you’re doing that, you know, while you’re taking the time to actually do your research on the ecosystem, and the protocols coming out on… Built on Terra and all of that, what that does is it actually builds conviction. And most certainly, people that are investing probably have some sort of money coming in that they’ll be able to invest in the future. So as you’re building up that conviction, of course, a month or so down the line, you probably socked away a couple more dollars in an account dedicated to investing. And then, regardless of the price, if the price has gone up, if it’s gone sideways, or even going down slightly, you’ll be inclined to invest more, because you’ll understand, “Okay, cool. This really is a behemoth of a project. This is really is an apex asset,” to use LUNAomics and Cephii’s favorite terms. And so that’s option one.

Dr. Doscoin 13:00
Option two, would be, and I was really racking my brain earlier on, I was like, “Okay, what is the best thing to do?” And I think if you’ve got a bit of knowledge, obviously, there’s liquidity pools that you can jump into. So we were talking the other night, Rebel, and I was saying, I’ve been quite a fan of the ANC-UST pool for a while now, just because it’s been relatively stable. And the rewards are pretty good, too. They’ve been pretty consistently around at least 100%. They’ve dropped down at different times to 70%-80%, but they’re back up fairly comfortably around that 100% APR. And so you can take those rewards and you could put those rewards into more LUNA and then bond that and bring down your LTV, you could put that into your Earn and actually build up a little bit of a reserve in your Earn, so that down the track, ultimately, you can pay down things if you need to. But then I started thinking a bit more like the degen that I am, Rebel. I was like, “How would I get some NFTs and stuff involved in this?” And so one of the things I thought of… And this is again, everyone kind of do their own strategies and this isn’t financial advice, but I just thought something that is probably not considered by a lot of people is utilizing NFTs. And I thought, “What could I do that would still utilize Terra, but perhaps even be able to navigate away from it a little bit and come back to it?” And so, where I arrived at is, if you do some good research on some Ethereum NFTs, what you could do is take your LUNA, you could bond it, collateralize it, borrow against it at a, let’s say a safer LTV than that 45% that myself and people like LUNAomics like to hang out at, and maybe put it at somewhere around that 25%-30%. And the reason I say that, Rebel, is if you look at the… And actually, this is a question, do you ever look at the Kujira analytics?

Rebel Defi 15:11
I used to but then I sold my KUJI tokens, so not anymore.

Dr. Doscoin 15:17
Right. Yeah, so for those who don’t know, Kujira the app which you use for participating in liquidations to pick up other people’s liquidated bLUNA, there is a function there where if you have contributed enough, ANC… Sorry, not ANC, KUJI and UST as a pair to the pool there, it gives you access to not very much analytics, but a basic amount of analytics. And what you can see in the graphs there is, there’s a big bell curve… There’s actually a big spike around about that 30% mark, where you can see a lot of people sitting at that 30% LTV. There’s some that sit up higher, but there’s a real big spike around that kind of 30% mark. So maybe just under that. I would say that’s somewhat conservative, depending on where you think we are in the market. I think that… Personally, I think that LUNA is probably not going to go down really that far anymore. It might trend towards the mid $70s again, and then I think if it does that, I’d suspect that it’s probably not going to visit the $70s again, either ever or too many times again, not financial advice, just my opinions.

Dr. Doscoin 15:57
So you’re saying that because so many people are around about 30% LTV, 30%, if you’re below that, they’re kind of protecting you from getting liquidated because they’ll get liquidated first. Is that what you mean?

Dr. Doscoin 16:40
Correct. Yeah, correct. So when you… Yeah, because what you can see as well, is you can see the… When you look at just the general frontface… The frontend of the Kuji app, and you can see all the bids there, of course there’s usually a pretty big… If there’s speculation that it’s going to go down in price, it’s a pretty big buy wall. And so just by being under that 30%, you’ve given yourself just a little bit more extra protection than you probably have if you were sitting around that 35%-40%. Actually, and the other thing to mention, on that note is that, the more LUNA you have, and the higher the price that LUNA is, a 15% drop on price for LUNA when it’s sitting at $1,000, versus a 15% drop on price when it’s sitting at $100, there’s a lot more wiggle room price wise. So factoring in that, $3,000 isn’t really a huge amount of money. And so if you are sitting on $3,000 worth of LUNA and you’ve taken out a loan, the price doesn’t actually have to fluctuate a great deal if you’re leveraged fairly high for that to start being kind of… Seeming threatening. So just food for thought. That’s why I think it’s really good to, particularly early days, always go conservative because there’s nothing wrong with keeping money in your pocket by being a little bit conservative… A little bit more Cavalier and reckless, but it’s no good talking about the money that you don’t have.

Dr. Doscoin 17:10
Or money that you used to have, I suppose, yeah.

Dr. Doscoin 18:13
So that…

Rebel Defi 18:14
The point is that seems way too risky for me borrowing money and then taking it off the Terra ecosystem.

Dr. Doscoin 18:22
This is why I’m saying it’s a total degen play, but I’m sure that there may be some degens on the call. And so this is where I was at with the NFT part of it. And you could find a project that is a decent project, or one that you think has good potential. This is something that I’m considering doing as well myself, but buy an NFT, buy a couple of NFTs. Usually what I do when I’m buying NFTs is I will buy a couple, usually on the mint spot, if I can get one on the secondary market at a good price, I would… The cost of the other one and then essentially, I’ve landed myself a free NFT. What that then does, this is where I’m going with this, is what I’m… Because it’s Ethereum, I would sell it back to Ethereum, bond the Ethereum, and provide that as collateral. And then I’ve also got my NFT that’s potentially gaining value. So I’ve acquired a free NFT. And I’ve potentially gained some Ethereum to bond and use as collateral. Full degen, but it’s just a little play I thought of in my head earlier.

Rebel Defi 19:27
Kind of cool. To be honest, that doesn’t sound like something someone new… If I was talking to one of my friends to try and get them in… I mean, I love it. It does seem pretty cool. But if I was talking to someone at work and trying to say, “Oh, yeah, I’m doing this real cool thing in DeFi, decentralized finance.” If I told them about that, that would just blow their mind.

Dr. Doscoin 19:51
It’s way too complex if you don’t know what you’re doing. That’s why I offered the two strategies if you don’t know what you’re doing, buy and forget about it, if you know what you’re doing, you could go degen if you wanted to.

Rebel Defi 20:04
Cool. Cool. Thank you very much for those ideas and suggestions. I mean, it’s definitely given me something to think about. With regards to the NFTs, I can see one thing I’m noticing on this call, quite a few of us have NFTs as our profile pictures. And not to shill them too hard, but it does seem like the Galactic Punks are the most popular of all of them. And we’ve got on the call Tobi from Yield Labs. You might have seen him doing his tutorials on YouTube as well. He’s recently done quite a big series on Kujira. So he might have something to say about what Doctor was just saying about Kujira there. But Tobi, have you got any sort of beginner type suggestions for what people might want to do with their first $3,000 if they were just coming in to Terra? I don’t know if you can speak Tobi, but…

Tobi 21:02
Hey, what’s going on?

Rebel Defi 21:03
Hey, how are you doing?

Tobi 21:04
Hey, Rebel. How you doing, man? You’re alright?

Rebel Defi 21:06
Yeah, good. Thank you. I’m gonna say, my name is Andy. Rebel Defi was just my sort of Twitter thing, but I don’t know if I like being called Rebel, I’m quite a conservative guy at heart, actually.

Tobi 21:18
I don’t have to refer to you as Anon anymore, then.

Rebel Defi 21:20
Yeah. Anyway, so that’s Tobi, that’s quite a cool name. Whether or not it’s your real one doesn’t really matter, but yeah, I’m Andy.

Tobi 21:29
So with regards to Kujira, I think that it’s an absolutely brilliant platform. I think that what they’re doing in regards to the democratization of the entire liquidations process is incredible. And I think that the repercussions for this across decentralized finance are enormous. And one of the things that I thought was a bit of a disadvantage to this was the fact that you have to have your UST sitting in the platform waiting for a bid to be filled. Now, if you do the maths, and as you guys mentioned, you have the analytics tools given to you if you stake enough KUJI, and you can see where these LTV rates are currently sitting, you can get filled really, really often. If you go onto the Kujira website, you can see the 2%, 3% pools have been emptied, probably… Well, the last time I checked a couple of weeks ago was like 65 times or something. So assuming that that has gone up some more with the recent market conditions, then you can be getting these fields incredibly frequently.

Tobi 22:48
I think the disadvantage was having that UST kind of just sat there, but they have teased a little bit on Twitter the other day that they’re going to be using… Well, they’ll have an option to use aUST to bid instead. So you will be able to bid on these liquidated assets using aUST, which is already earning yield in Anchor Protocol itself, which is amazing. One of the other things that I’ve seen a lot lately is, perhaps some fear or some FUD. I’m not sure whether I like these acronyms and stuff, but some fear and uncertainty as to how sustainable Anchor Protocol is. And that led me to make the video on how sustainable is Anchor, and it really is… It is propped up a little bit by the ANC token. That was always going to be the way, that was the intention from the beginning. And it was… I think it’s important to realize how these protocols work. A lot of the… I mean, some of the math in the white paper for Anchor Protocol itself is, I mean, I look at it and feel like a moron because it’s really complex. But if you understand the basic premise of what they’re achieving, and how they’re getting the ball rolling, then you feel a lot safer having your money invested in these various protocols. I think Kujira is going to be incredible. I think that when additional platforms come… Sorry, when additional collateralized assets come from… Like bSOL, bATOM and so on, that that is going to like really bootstrap the Terra ecosystem even harder than we perhaps even realize as we’re just sat here talking on this call.

Tobi 24:44
Now as what you would do for your first $3,000, which is the topic of this call, I guess. It’s a bit of a strange one at the moment, isn’t it? Because sometimes you get… Like you were saying you’ve been in for… Since earlier this year. We’ve obviously had a lot of focus on Terra this year, too. So it’s kind of sometimes difficult to recommend to people to buy into these DeFi protocols that have already been on a fairly huge tear. But at the same time, with the ongoing burns… Do Kwon is just something else, right? He’s like, that’s what you want from a figurehead of a project. And it was the whole, “$100 isn’t a meme”, and now it’s like, “$1,000 isn’t a meme”. Is it gonna go to $1,000? Who knows, right? These things can really explode and expand over time. But I think having a… You made a really cool video the other day, just like going over this sort of structure of generating more LUNA with LUNA that you already have. And I think your first few $1,000 into the LUNA ecosystem should be doing something safe, and something stable, excuse me, and something that will allow you to get a feel for the ecosystem as a whole, instead of degen-ing into one of the tokens that’s just launching.

Tobi 26:24
I know, there’s so many projects coming to Terra ecosystem, there’s like 75 something still to come. It’s insane. So the total value in… What’s DeFi Llama saying, like $16 billion or something at the moment? And I can only see that growing more as more of these protocols come into play. And some of them are really novel ideas too. Doctor you were talking about taking your borrow out and away and buying NFTs and stuff. And I know that we already have products that will allow you to do this in a safer way. In other platforms such as Ethereum, there’s… God, I can’t remember his name now. But we basically got Kinetic Money and other platforms like that coming that will allow you to take out a loan on Terra, and then it uses Anchor to repay the loan automatically itself. So these are sort of like self fulfilling loans. Prism will allow you to do this, of sorts, as well. I just think it’s a really exciting time. And I think that a lot of people get really scared by the uncertainty caused by the greater market. But I think that it’s easy to perhaps get caught up in that. But if you just zoom out, six months ago, you could pick LUNA up for $20 a throw, and it’s definitely a hold for me. Not financial advice. Everybody has their own timeline. Everybody has their own portfolio structure. LUNA, perhaps when I first started looking into it was a bit more of a… Not a degenerate play, but less of a safe play than perhaps my core, which is Ethereum, I guess. But now, LUNA is way up there. And I’ve missed that I can get it as quickly and in as much volume as I could. And I think that it’s certainly… The ecosystem will grow. And I can only see that that taking the LUNA token with it.

Tobi 28:58
I don’t know. I think it’s I think it’s an exciting time, man. And I think there’s so much to come. I think we’ve barely even scratched the surface. And I think that a lot of the projects that have launched recently have… There’s been some negativity about the way that they’ve launched, or the token ran, and then came crashing back down. And I think that’s a symptom of that, perhaps, echo chamber for lack of a better expression that we sort of have in Terra, because it hasn’t got that full money effect yet, of people coming cross-chain. And I think we’re really starting to see that as this price is going up, the burns are taking effect, we’re getting higher up into these TVL rankings. And I think that it’s just eyes on for a lot more people now. So, sorry, got on a bit of a rant there. But in short, I think that if you play it safe for a little while and get comfortable with the ecosystem, borrow a bit, play with it, the transaction fees are so low, and the UI is attractive. The apps are easy to interact with, yeah, have at it.

Rebel Defi 30:11
Thank you. Excuse me. Thank you very much, Tobi. I mean, that’s why I’m in Terra. I just I just fell… I tried a little bit on… A very little bit on Ethereum and just the gas fees, considering the size of my portfolio, were killing me. A bit on Avalanche and Matic, I was on Matic for quite a while, that was quite nice. But when I started using Terra, I just thought, just the look and the feel was unlike any of the other DeFi protocols I was using. And, yeah, I love it and I’ve stuck around. One thing… I mean, quite a lot of things, you raised there. Kinetic Money. I’ve only really started researching that in the last couple of days, and that is amazing. So if you haven’t heard of Kinetic Money, they’ve got a nice medium article, it’s worth reading. You’re able to just Google that. And also Prism as well. I think Prism, when that comes out, with that will be quite a low risk way that we can put our LUNA to work. But how exactly it’s going to work, I think we need to wait until it’s released.

Rebel Defi 31:26
So I’ll just quickly run through what I would maybe do with $3,000. And then we can open it up to some questions. One thing we’ve not mentioned explicitly yet is staking. I think… I mean, I stake about a quarter of my LUNA. I could maybe make more yield doing something else with it. But I think we’re using a decentralized finance protocol, or protocols, built upon the Terra networks and for that network to be secure, people need to delegate LUNA to secure the network. So I see it as a kind of public good, paying my dues. And also I’m getting 10% ish, maybe a bit less, return and also airdrops. So I did quite well out of the Astroport airdrop, just because I had staked LUNA. So if I had $3,000, I would maybe put $1,000 of that into LUNA and just stake it with a validator. Tons of validators to pick from, just find one that kind of vibes with your own philosophy. Obviously you want a validator with high uptime, and probably a relatively low commission. I always look for… In fact, everyone I’m delegating to just now has less than 5% commission, or 5% or less. With the rest of my LUNA, also not LUNA, money, I might invest another $1,000 into LUNA and then bond it into bonded LUNA. So just so I could try and get a feel for how borrowing works on Anchor, maybe $2,000 worth of bLUNA, post it as collateral on Anchor, and maybe just borrow a 10% loan to value just so I can see the mechanics of what happens, what interest gets charged, what rewards do I get, because you do get Anchor rewards getting kicked out for borrowing on the platform. And then maybe take that $100 and just put it into Anchor Earn so I can see… It kind of works out as cost neutral to borrow. And I’ve taken that borrowed money, and I’m now getting paid 20% on money that I’d borrowed. And I mean, that just… When I should have been borrowing money, and I wasn’t borrowing all that much was in the summer, when we were getting paid over 100% in Anchor tokens to borrow money. I didn’t fully understand exactly how it all worked, so I kind of stayed away from it. But borrowing money is really, really powerful DeFi option, so it’s one that I think is worthwhile trying to get to grips with.

Rebel Defi 34:21
And the last $1,000 If I had $3,000, I would maybe either just buy more LUNA, or consider looking at a liquidity pool because again, that’s quite a fundamental concept to what we’re doing in DeFi. So maybe going for the LUNA-UST liquidity pool and maybe viewing that as a kind of cash position. Because the amount of LUNA and amount of UST that you can have in that position does actually change over time. You do get trading fees, which helps to bump up the position. But if LUNA goes substantially up in price, the amount of LUNA that you’ll be holding in that liquidity pool actually goes down, even though the value of your holding in dollar terms goes up. So it’s just interesting to sort of see and try and get your head around how these liquidity pools work. And we were actually kind of talking about a similar question with the guys at Orbital Command. And some of you might know Shah, he’s basically in charge of Orbital Command, and when we asked him the question, he just went, “Buy LUNA.” So I think, for people that have been in the ecosystem for a while, that is essentially the answer to this question. Get hold of LUNA, just as Doctor was saying earlier, get LUNA and just keep it. And hopefully, if what Tobi, Doctor, and myself are thinking, and what many people in space are thinking is that, just over time LUNA is, from here, going to do another 10x or so. Great way to build wealth. So with those thoughts, if anyone’s got a question, comment or criticism for any of us up here, if you just want to raise your hand, we can bring you up. Or you might even have your own idea of what you do with your first $3,000. Or Doctor, or Tobi, any sort of closing thoughts just now?

Dr. Doscoin 36:13
My initial thought here was that, yeah, and this is from personal experience. A few years ago, I made the decision… I had some really quick gains because I happen to be holding Verge, which was being shilled by John McAfee at the time. And so I made some really quick gains, and then I thought, “Well, you know what,” and this was before I had a better understanding of how this stuff worked. I was like, “Well, if I’ve got all this money now, why don’t I just take $1,000… For every $1,000 that I’ve got here, why don’t I just allocate that to one token, and sit on that.” And so I thought going wide was going to be a better option. And as it kind of all panned out, I happen to buy mostly the top. This was the end of the 2017 2018 bull run. And most of them underperformed, a few of them did quite well and had been quite lucrative. But my first thought is when it comes to the $3,000, the thought of divvying it up into three $1,000 allocations, as a new person in the space, would have made a lot of sense to me. So I would have thought, “Okay, if I put $1,000 on LUNA, and $1,000 on KUJI, and $1,000 on, whatever, Psi. Just pick one, surely one of these is destined to do really well.

Dr. Doscoin 37:40
What I’ve come to realize is that, when you know that something is fundamentally, really, really good, you’re better off going deep than you are going wide. Or at least, I’ll speak in the “I” here, I’ve done a lot better going deeper than I have going wider with my investments. And I’ve actually… I sold off a lot of my I was at one point, I was probably holding 70 different, probably more, 70 different altcoins. And I sold a bunch of them down and now, I have my blue chips. For me, it’s like BTC, ETH, and LUNA. And then there’s the next tier. But I would say if you are just starting, for me, LUNA makes the most sense, because it seems almost inevitable. Obviously, there are black swan events and things change. But it seems pretty inevitable to me that there’s still a 10x in this, still a 10x. So it’s like, if you’re 10x-ing $3,000, that’s $30,000. And then let’s say if in the time that it gets to $30,000, you’ve been doing your research, you’ve been doing your homework, you’ve figured out, “Okay, this is where I’d invest extra capital, if I had it,” well then at $30,000, by the time it’s there, and that… Maybe it takes a little while, maybe it rockets there this year, who knows. But at that point, if you were to borrow 10%, you’ve just given yourself a loan of $3,000. It’s like, well… Then you can make good decisions, but I just think, yeah, just just a little thought I had there was about going deep. Be curious to hear your thoughts, Andy.

Rebel Defi 39:22
Awesome. Well, thank you for sharing that. Just one final thing before we bring up Frugal Lunatic. I’m certainly not recommending this, but something that I’ve done since last year… Or sorry, the end of 2019. I have taken out a couple of bank loans. And I’ve just chucked it straight into Terra. And it’s worked out really well for me. It obviously could have gone the other way but I just thought… Once I kind of realized that I wanted to like, crypto… I don’t own property. I don’t have shares. I mean, my pension from work is probably going to be alright. But I mean, crypto is my one chance to make it and retire early. So I thought if I’m believing this thing. Yeah, borrow money cheaply in the real world, chuck it into DeFi and see what happens. But, as I’m saying, that’s not advice or anything, that’s just what I’m doing just to kind of max it out. So rather than starting with $3,000, I started with a bit more than that, but it wasn’t even my money. But yes, anyway, Frugal Lunatic is here. Do you have… Yeah, just unmute, and let’s hear your comments.

Frugal Lunatic 40:45
Hey, thank you for doing the space again. And I really appreciate your videos and everything that you’re doing. I had a question about Anchor Borrow. So I’ve seen that Anchor Borrow is like a central part of many strategies that are out there on how to make more LUNA with your existing LUNA stack. So if… I wanted to know how did it work in the sense that it shows a minus 17… A 17% interest rate, and then there’s a -16% on the same thing, and then you’re getting, in the end, just -1% as of right now. I saw a few months ago, it was a positive 1% or 2%, which means getting paid to borrow. So, I wanted to know, where does it, in the end, catch up to you? Where do you see that coming in? Is it when we pay back it’s… You’re getting the Anchor rewards, and then you have to sell them to make up for your borrowed UST? I don’t know if that question makes sense.

Rebel Defi 42:00
No, no, that seems to make sense to me. Tobi, you’ve done a little bit of a deep dive into Anchor recently. Do you want to respond to that? Or shall I take that one?

Tobi 42:10
Sure. So the thing with Anchor is that it was originally… So it’s incentivized with the ANC token. Now, this incentivization lasts until 2024. And obviously, with the influx of capital and the LUNA burn, and the increase in value that we’ve seen lately of the LUNA token itself, and the ecosystem, more participation going in. It’s a balancing act, right. So what needs to happen in this for Anchor Protocol, is that the collateralized positions need to be earning yield, to pay out the 20% or whatever… So it always aims to be around that 20% mark, right. So when you deposit ETH, and you deposit LUNA as collateralized positions, you have to over collateralize it, right. When these over collateralized tokens are taken, they are then invested elsewhere to earn yield, think Lido and so on, so the ETH will be earning like 6%, LUNA 5%… I don’t know what the current rates are, I haven’t checked for a week or two. So just with this, that Anchor Protocol’s ability to earn yield is somewhere between the 10%-16% mark on any given rough day as a rough estimate. Now, the Anchor token itself, then, is used to offset the difference. And any additional is then used to bolster the Treasury.

Tobi 43:59
Now, as you can see with the net APR, it’s currently negative, so you’re actually paying like a very small amount to borrow, right? So I remember when I made my first ever Anchor video, there was… I think you were being paid, I don’t even remember, 50 odd percent, or whatever, to borrow. And it was really high. Again, this changes over time. The rewards are paid out. You need to be observant and make sure that you are maintaining healthy borrow rates and make sure that you are managing your collateralized positions as well as possible. Make sure that they’re safe. Doctor said earlier that, again, in Kuji you can see the… Where a lot of people are borrowing money. It’s around that 30% mark. That’s what people are deeming a safe value. The more that people are conservative with their borrowing, the less… Or the more that helps the seesaw, kind of keeping Anchor Protocol balanced. If more and more people are degenerate, then the amount that is lent out versus the collateral posted, that difference is smaller, right. So the protocol has to work harder in that rebalancing effect. I hope that makes sense.

Rebel Defi 45:29
So I mean, just adding to that, I mean, I’m a net borrower on Anchor. And I mean, the protocol needs people to borrow, so that it can generate the yields to pay out the people who are depositing. Did you agree with that, Tobi?

Tobi 45:49
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So like, the more that is borrowed… Sorry, the more that is deposited, and the less that is borrowed from Anchor Protocol, the better stead it’s in, and the less it needs to incentivize borrowing and lending and so on.

Rebel Defi 46:06
Exactly. And just as you were saying, the incentivized rates early in the year were just crazy. So how that might look in practice then, Frugal, is if… I mean, Frugal, do you have a loan just now?

Frugal Lunatic 46:21
Yeah, I do have a loan. I kind of did your strategy about your latest video about letting the loan into three parts, putting it into Apollo DAO, and having a liquidity pool on TerraSwap, and so on. So kind of like that. And also had some bLUNA, put it again as collateral. So keeping it below 30%, or just around 30%. But again, the same question as to where is incentivization coming in? Where I’m like… Do I have to sell Anchor tokens to make up for the 16% that I’m being incentivised for?

Rebel Defi 47:05
Do you use it on your phone or on your computer?

Frugal Lunatic 47:09
It’s on my computer.

Rebel Defi 47:10
Right. So if it… Say, we’re talking about $3,000 today, I wouldn’t necessarily recommend this for someone to start off with doing. But if you turn that $3,000 into LUNA, then into bLUNA, provided it as collateral on the Borrow tab on Anchor, and then maybe borrowed $1,000, say. And then you’d see this net APR at the moment that’s saying one point, or -1.86%. So if you have a look on My Page, on Anchor, on the right hand side, you should see a part, the total claimable rewards. And then that’s where the Anchor rewards that you’re getting for borrowing are going to accrue. So I mean, yeah, you can claim those rewards any time. I mean, I wouldn’t claim it if it was less than… Anything less than $10 is not worth your while claiming because you’re gonna have a little bit of fees, and the fees kind of eat into those rewards. But yeah, I mean, just as you’re saying, I mean, you could claim those Anchor rewards, sell them immediately for UST, and then pay down your loan. And in that way, the borrowed amount is only going to increase very slowly, just at that 1.86%. I mean, as it stands, the borrowed value will be going up, mine’s say 17.74%. So, I mean, that’s… In the space of a year, what would that be? If you had $1,000 loan, that would be up to about $1,177? But if you want to keep your loan down, you could just sell your Anchor rewards, and pay it off. Does that make sense? Or is that what you’re asking?

Frugal Lunatic 48:58
Yeah, that is exactly I wanted to know. And you would probably recommend, if I wanted to do it, would it be wise to do it every week? Or maybe once a month or something…

Rebel Defi 49:11
If your strategy was like, “No, I want to just keep this loan manageable,” yes, maybe once… I mean, depending on what they’re… Sort of how much you’re getting, but yeah, once a week, once a month. I mean, I used to do it like on Sunday morning. That was kind of just my routine.

Frugal Lunatic 49:27
Sure. Yeah, that’s exactly what I want to know. I knew I was being incentivized, but I can’t tell where, and at what part would I get some Anchor tokens. So yeah, that was my question. Thank you. Thank you for the Space.

Rebel Defi 49:44
Okay, brilliant. Thanks for the question. We’ve got Frederick up.

Frederick 49:51
Hey, guys. Yeah, I just have a suggestion if you’re new to Terra. Spend at least $100 or $200 to play around with the ecosystem. Just, I don’t know, mint a $20 NFT, or play with Apollo DAO, something like that, you know? Because if you don’t play with it, you don’t know what you’re investing your money in. And to put your money in LPs, if you’re just starting, maybe it’s like… It’s kind of hard for newbies that hasn’t dealt with investing to really understand how LPs work. So maybe that’s worth… That’s something worth considering?

Rebel Defi 50:37
That is… I mean, I really like that suggestion. I mean, if taking an amount of money that, to you is money that you can lose. So for some people that might be $100, for some people it might be $50, for other people it could be $1,000, whatever. But yeah, I like that, just playing with it, seeing how these apps work is a great idea.

Frederick 51:02
Yeah. And another thing is, please go easy on the leverage. Because I know people in the space are really crazy degens, and they just, I don’t know, do a couple of rounds in Abracadabra money and everything.

Rebel Defi 51:18
Yeah, oh, that’s crazy.

Frederick 51:22
As someone new, I don’t think you should dabble with that. But as you get better, I guess you should try, at least.

Rebel Defi 51:30
100%. I mean, to be honest, I think it is important to learn about how the borrowing works, because it is a great way to leverage your money. But I mean, as you say, go in with some play money first. And just kind of try and work out the system. It’s a brilliant idea. To shill my YouTube channel, I do have some sort of tutorials aimed at beginners. And I know Tobi’s got some on his Yield Labs channel as well, that are targeted for newer people coming in. Yeah, that’s a brilliant contribution, Frederick, thank you very much.

Tobi 52:05
I’ll quickly echo that too, because that’s one of the things that I used to speak to the community about is, don’t be afraid, because Ethereum gas fees were running up, and it was $100 a transaction, and it was just outrageous. So if you’ve been in Ethereum for a long time, then it was just horses for courses. But being new to DeFi, and having the ability to play with these features and familiarize yourself with them, understand what it feels like to take… The psychology is an enormous aspect of investing and being part of this space, too, right. So when you when you get a margin call, or when you are looking at Anchor and your loan value is creeping up higher and higher, that’s unnerving. It’s a situation that isn’t particularly comfortable for anybody with any amount of money. I remember in 2015, or whatever, when I was buying ETH and stuff, and I’m chucking $100 in, and it’s like, “Well, that’s a lot of money. I hope I don’t lose that.” And then it gets cut in half, and it’s just like, “Well, shit.” [chuckle] Now, you become accustomed to these tos and fros, and the ups and downs. And I think it’s important to get your mindset on point for investing. Because it’s difficult, right? If it was easy, every single person would be doing this, and everybody would have been doing it for years. It’s not easy. It’s hard. It’s a psychological strain. It’s a mental strain. It’s a physical strain if you don’t look after all this stuff. So being able to immerse yourself in a low fee environment like Terra is incredibly beneficial. And I suggest… If you can afford $20, if that’s your throw away money, dick around with it. Go and play, buy some tokens, try a little LP, do this, do that. It’s really, really important.

Rebel Defi 54:14
Awesome. Yep, I would agree with that. 100%. We’ve got Chloe up with a contribution. Are you able to… Are you there, Chloe? Do you want to unmute?

ChloePing 54:27
Hey, do you hear me well?

Rebel Defi 54:31
Yep, we can hear you, Chloe, good morning.

ChloePing 54:32
Oh, perfect. Good morning. Hey, wonderful. I also see some familiar faces. Tobi and Jim, very nice to see you. And thank you for hosting this. Very interesting topic. I agree completely. LUNA is a no brainer to be in, very happy that I was in early on. And speaking of leverage, basically I have been there. And I was lucky I didn’t get liquidated. But it is a great learning experience. So I encourage everybody to give a try to just feel how it feels. I think it’s important. Learning is all by doing, experiencing. Excuse my voice is… I am I’m sick. This is my third day of fasting. It’s such a wonderful experience. I think my body’s detoxing, and therefore I’m sick. [chuckle] But also I have very low energy level. I have have been not eating for 72 hours. It’s tough. At the same time, exciting, because, I’m all into this challenge myself and see what’s possible, and push the boundaries. And this is one of them. Also, with investing, I think there’s just endless learning, endless opportunities. I’m just so grateful that I am early on found Tobi, the Yield Labs, to start with and to learn the necessaries and to being in LUNA. I’m very excited for 2022 to unfold. Yeah, I’m just big in LUNA and Fantom. So I’m very happy. And oh, yeah. I’m sorry. I’m very… I organized now, with my thoughts. I do have one question. I would love to hear both you, Rebel, is that how I pronounce your name?

Rebel Defi 57:12
Yep. Rebel.

ChloePing 57:15
Rebel, sorry. I would like to hear your input, and Toby’s on Nexus on Terra LUNA. Thank you. And happy 2022.

Rebel Defi 57:32
And to you too, Chloe. They say that… I’ve got some friends who have gone quite deep into fasting. They say the first few days of fasting are often the hardest. And then once you get into it, you just get past the not eating thing. I think Nexus could potentially be amazing. I’m not using it because I don’t have… I’ve not made it yet. I think once I’ve made it, I might use protocols like Nexus more just to preserve my wealth. I’m still building my wealth. So that’s the stage I’m in. So I don’t see 8%… I mean, it’s similar to the staking yield. So I just stake my LUNA for that sort of return. One protocol that I’m potentially equally, if not more excited about that does something similar to Nexus is Neptune. They’ve not released yet. But the reason I’m a bit more excited about Neptune, I think, and it’s no… Maybe it’s just my lack of understanding about Nexus, but there seems to be a lot of these Psi tokens, or Psi, or P-S-I, or however we’re supposed to pronounce it, there seems to be a lot of these tokens lying around. And that just makes me a little bit concerned. The difference between Nexus and Neptune is quite subtle. And in many ways it’s not that big, but in other ways is massive. And Neptune aren’t going to pay rewards in their token. They’re just going to autocompound your bLUNA position. And that’s essentially, that’s what I would do with Nexus. When I get the Psi rewards, I would potentially, probably, just sell them for more LUNA. And I don’t think that contributes to the project. So that’s one reason why I’m not using Nexus. Any other comments, Tobi? Doctor?

Tobi 59:34
I think we see this a lot with a lot of protocols that I’ve come to Terra is that… I don’t know how to best word this but it doesn’t offer any… Like Nexus doesn’t particularly offer anything that isn’t already available. If you want to get that sort of yield, you can just stake and have at it, right? The LP pulls were amazing to begin with, they were paying really high interest rates. But as you said, Andy, it doesn’t contribute to the platform in any way, shape, or form. I know I certainly was just taking those and rolling it back into LUNA, or putting it into Anchor, or whatever. I wasn’t keeping those Nexus tokens. And I think that the unlock was really detrimental to the platform, right. So the… For those of you that don’t know, you could get this token on Pylon, and it was a Pylon swap. So you basically just have to deposit $1,500 UST, and you’ve got basically 150,000 Nexus tokens, which is a lot, right. And then when these all unlock in a massive batch at the same time, there’s an enormous amount of downward pressure on the price. So everybody wanted to… And this token have been up to like 40 or 50 cents, and, you know, it’s down at like five now, right? So even the people who were able to participate in that swap still made a 5x on their money, which is great. But it was up in the realms of like 50x. Now, I mean, we had Nexus and Tundra, we had them for an interview, podcast type thing on the YouTube channel. They’re really great guys, the platform is going to be powerful when they add more stuff to it, when they add the vaults, and fine tune them and so on. But it’s one of those things that it’s just like build it, ship it, and get it out the door to the customer in a functioning form, and then we’ll fix it as we go along, kind of deal. And I think we kind of see that quite a bit in the Terra ecosystem at the moment.

Rebel Defi 1:02:07
I mean, I do think that’s something we have to give Nexus respect for. And unfortunately, that’s not really priced into their token. But I mean, they were one of the first to come out, if not the first. Maybe I’ve got my memories not working as well as it could. But they were really early on after Columbus-5. So I mean, I think that’s great. But unfortunately, people aren’t going to buy their token just to say thanks for that. Doctor, you got anything else you want to contribute on Nexus?

Dr. Doscoin 1:02:42
Yeah, just a quick thing. Nothing too serious here. Actually, I just jumped on Nexus as we’re having this conversation, because I hadn’t been on it that much lately. I just remembered that I had some… I had a nLUNA-Psi pool that I’d forgotten about. I was like, “Oh, that was cool.” But I’m just scrolling through here, and I’m just thinking like, I myself… Yeah, I was using Nexus purely for the degen play. I was just doing lots of farming on it originally. I’m… Well, I thought I was out of all those pools, but apparently not. But the thing I was going to say is if you do want exposure to Nexus, well, I think the easiest thing to do is just get some Anchor, put it in governance stake, and then of course, you earn your Psi airdrops. And then regardless of what happens, if Nexus doesn’t really do much, well, at least you can… You’ll have some tokens that you can sell down the line. The airdrops are actually pretty… Sorry, the rewards are pretty decent for the governance stake in Anchor, depending on how much you’re putting in there. But if Nexus did happen to really bring the thunder and maybe, I don’t know, change something with the underlying mechanics where it wasn’t so inflationary, and the price did happen to take a run, well then, of course, you’ve just accrued a bunch of Psi for doing nothing other than having some Anchor sitting in the government stake. So just a thought.

Rebel Defi 1:04:06
That’s a good point. Yep.

ChloePing 1:04:08
Yeah, thank you for three of you. However, I think I did read somewhere saying that they are going to bring the burning mechanism for the token for… Because, I mean, the token emmission, it is pretty horrible. And the other aspect is that their key business wasn’t to helping to not getting liquidated, right? I think they’re working on it. So once that release, I guess, it will push the…

Tobi 1:04:48
This was my point, right? That’s what they were wanting to do. But the platform has been out for a couple of months now and it doesn’t do that yet. So it’s kind of just like a farming platform at the moment.

Rebel Defi 1:05:05
So I mean, as many of us, or many people have said already, 2022 could be a big year for lots of different projects in lots of different ways. Thanks for that question and contribution, Chloe. We’ve got time for one more comment. We’ve got OW. Do you want to unmute, Hiko?

Hiko 1:05:25
Yeah, sure. Thank you for that Space. I just had the one question on the LUNAomics’ strategy. What do you think about it? And are you using it yourself? Or aren’t you willing to go down that road because you would consider it too risky? Or… Yeah.

Rebel Defi 1:05:47
Cool. Interesting question. We were talking… Just at the very, very start of the Space, I jumped on a bit early, and we were discussing LUNAomics strategy before we sort of officially started. Obviously, that it is his strategy, and I may well not be understanding it fully. So I certainly don’t speak for LUNAomics. But I think it’s very elegant. If you’ve listened to all his spaces, and I highly… Whether or not you’re interested in his strategy or not, I think they’re brilliant Spaces just to increase your general knowledge of the Terra ecosystem. While he was talking about how he goes… Oh, sorry, for anyone who’s not too sure of this strategy, my understanding of it is, he will deposit bLUNA collateral into Anchor, and then borrow at a rate of 25% initially. And with that 25% borrow, he just buys LUNA. And if people thought that was enough exposure, they could just sit there. No, he does not provide that LUNA as bLUNA and put it straight back in as collateral. That was one of my misunderstandings to begin with. He just sits with the LUNA in his wallet. But he seems to be quite happy to push his LTV higher.

Rebel Defi 1:07:16
So he’s sitting at 25% borrow with all that money converted into LUNA. He seems to then borrow another 20% UST, so his LTV’s right up at 45%. And then he’ll take that UST with the LUNA that he’s… Or the money that he borrowed and convert it into LUNA, pair that to 20% LUNA, 20% UST, and then provide that as an LP in TerraSwap to earn trading fees. And it might seem quite risky borrowing at 45%, and in many ways it is, but he’s got that money that you borrowed just sitting in TerraSwap. So if he ever needs to pay his loan down, he can just withdraw his liquidity, so he’ll get back UST and LUNA, and just use the UST to put straight back into his loan. So he could quite quickly pay his loan down to… Even if LUNA had gone down in price, pay his loan down to maybe around 30%-35%. And then only sell his LUNA that he borrowed if it absolutely came to that. One thing he was talking about on his Space that I thought was just fantastic was that, when LUNA goes down in price, the LUNA and UST he got sitting in that liquidity pair, the total value of that LP does go down. But the actual number of LUNA in that pool goes up. So even though you’re losing dollar value of your LP, you are gaining LUNA. And because he’s got such a big portfolio, he was saying that he gained an extra 600 LUNA in his LP. So he just took his LP out, took the dollar loss on the LP position, but then just waited for LUNA to go back up in price. And when it did, he had an extra 600 LUNA going back up in price. So overall, he ended up doing really, really well by LUNA going down in price. So it just seems… I think that’s why it’s so elegant. As long as LUNA doesn’t absolutely tank, and as long as LUNA does recover at some stage, he’s going to be making money if LUNA is going up, and he’s going to be making money if LUNA goes down and then comes back up. So I think it’s beautiful.

Hiko 1:09:44
Now, when it comes to you, are you implementing this strategy? Or what are your plans regarding it?

Rebel Defi 1:09:54
I’m still thinking… I sort of like his previous strategy where he generates cash flow. So going into… So rather than just going into the LUNA-UST LP I’m going into… So I’m essentially doing his strategy, except rather than just going into LUNA-UST, I’m going into Anchor… Using borrowed money to go into ANC-UST, LUNA-UST, and I’m considering going back into mining UST at the moment. But I do like his strategy. I don’t run my LTV as high as he does, because I’m still a little bit scared. But yeah, that’s my thoughts. Doctor, Tobi, have you got… Are you doing something similar? Or what are you doing with your borrow?

Tobi 1:10:44
I think that that is a strategy to be used or… I must admit, I’m not massively familiar with it. But from what you’ve just explained, Andy, I feel like that’s a big bag strategy. And not particularly something for… Not financial advice, these are your tokens that you do as you please with them. But I feel like the benefit of that comes from when you’ve got a large position, accumulating big, big amounts of LUNA, right? If you do this, and you earn 0.2 LUNA a week, or a fortnight, or whatever, there’s better opportunities out there. But if you’ve got a million bucks in liquidity, then it’s beneficial and it’s safer than… With that amount of money than it is degen-ing a million bucks into nETH-UST, or whatever else you could choose.

Rebel Defi 1:11:50
Yeah, I just want to jump back in on that one, Tobi. Completely agree, but I don’t know the source of this, but everyone’s… Well, not everyone, but a lot of people seem to see it on crypto Twitter, is that if we ever get liquidated, if the value of our collateral on Anchor is ever below $2,000, and we get liquidated, we don’t lose a percentage of our collateral, we just lose it all.

Tobi 1:12:20
Yeah, you get totally liquidated. It’s in the Anchor whitepaper.

Rebel Defi 1:12:25
Right. Thank you is good.

Tobi 1:12:28
And over $2,000, you just get partially liquidated. So one benefits of Kujira now, running this liquidation queue, and the rewrite of the Anchor contract, or the Anchor liquidations contract is that it’s actually beneficial to… Sorry, I’m trying to keep this short. So it used to be ran by… There’s a list of bots, I can try and dig it out, I guess. But there was like between 15 and 19 bots that used to run the liquidations on Anchor. And what they would do, because this was beneficial to them is that they would let the LTVs go as high as possible before actually liquidating them. So you would see liquidations up to 30% of your collateral value, right. Now, Kujira, when you bid in these pools, these pools are liquidating the at risk… Sorry, the collateral is already liquidated by the liquidations bot, Kujira calls this, and bids on the liquidated premiums. So if you get a fill at like 5%, that means somebody with a value of… Sorry, somebody with a loan value greater than $2,000 UST is being liquidated and losing 5% of their collateral if they fall into that 5% pool. If the cascading event goes up to the 10% pool, then you could be at risk of getting liquidated at 10%. And it’s not first come first serve anymore, right? It goes through the pools. So the lower these bid values are stacked in Kujira. Like the better off people who are borrowing are. Does that make sense?

Rebel Defi 1:14:24
Yes. And so, in a sense as long as we’ve got a big enough stack of LUNA as collateral in Anchor, should you get liquidated, it’s not necessarily going to be the end of the world.

Tobi 1:14:39

Rebel Defi 1:14:40
But if our collateral’s not that much, and that essentially means maybe about… I don’t know, 100 LUNA? Unless you’ve got at least 100 LUNA, you could potentially be completely liquidated. Even 100 LUNA I’m just thinking about… I’ve got a couple of little accounts that I use sort of for demos. If LUNA really does tank and drops 80%, even though my 100 LUNA is close to $10,000 just now, I reckon I could lose it all. Because at that stage, if it was an 80% drop, it would be below $2,000. Yeah, a little bit complex. But yeah. Thanks, Tobi. And closing comments from Doctor, anything else you want to add? His silence speaks volumes. [chuckle] We’ll see if he comes back on. Are you there? No. I’ll put up a tweet thread of some of the things we discussed. We sort of went off topic a little bit, but hopefully that was of use to at least some of you on the call. One final request, we’ll see if we can squeeze it in. Oh, it’s Doctor saying he… Oh, he was kicked off or something? Sorry, I’m getting all muddled up here. I think there’s someone else asking? Sorry, something’s messed up with my Twitter, so if you’ve requested to speak, I can’t find you at the moment, I’m afraid. Sorry about that. Maybe you can send me a tweet or something, and we can address your issue.

Rebel Defi 1:16:13
Thanks, everyone, for being on this space. It’s been a lot of fun. Great to have Tobi up here from Yield Labs as well, check him out on YouTube. One thing that’s… Maybe this could be the closing remarks. Your YouTube channel has something like 32,500 subscribers, which is quite an impressive number. But yet your Twitter has, is it less than 1000 followers? So would be my suggestion. Go and follow Tobi on Twitter.

Tobi 1:16:41
I think the… No, the YouTube is at 4,000, 5,000, something like that. The Yield Labs Twitter account, the main Twitter account, is at like 25,000, 26,000, something like that.

Rebel Defi 1:16:53
Oh, that’s what I’m thinking of. Okay. Well.

Tobi 1:16:56
But yeah, follow me on Twitter. I have like 500 followers.

Rebel Defi 1:17:01
Yeah, that’s the call to action.

ChloePing 1:17:05
Tobi needs more exposure.

Rebel Defi 1:17:10
Well, yeah. I think I leaked Tobi’s… I think Tobi’s Galactic Punk actually looks… I’ve not seen you with a beard, Tobi, but it looks kind of like you.

Tobi 1:17:19
That’s why I chose it.

Rebel Defi 1:17:19
That’s a good choice. And so what… Can you tell us just… Final comments then. What is Yield Labs? ‘Cause I know it’s not just you. You’ve got like… You do these tutorials, and I’ve forgotten your friend’s name, but he’s a French sounding guy.

Tobi 1:17:19
There’s a few of us. Yeah. So there’s a few of us, there’s a group of four of us, and we’ve been friends for a long time. And we all sort of walked this path together over the last four or five years, this getting into crypto, learning the ropes, DeFi, a couple of us started in Forex and stuff. Now we’re sort of fully submerging ourselves into the crypto ecosystem. We have professional backgrounds in high management in IT companies, or internet service providers and stuff. And we’ve just… We all do this full time. So we’re all in a good position. And we just feel like not enough people know about this, and we would shout it from the rooftops to friends and family to join us, and escape the nine to five and the daily grind. And you sort of don’t… They either listen, or they don’t, more often than not they don’t. So we decided that we’d take it to the internet and perhaps people would listen to us over there.

Rebel Defi 1:18:45
Take it to the internet. Well, listen, you’ve doxxed yourself on your YouTube channel. You’re right out there. So next time I am in your neck of the woods, and I’m not actually that far, I will try and get in touch and maybe we can have a coffee or something.

Tobi 1:18:57
That sounds perfect, man. It was great to talk to you. And I appreciate everything you do.

Rebel Defi 1:19:03
Well thanks everyone for joining us on this Spaces. It has been recorded by TerraSpaces. Finn got up really early in the morning for him to hit record. So if you want to listen back, check out Thanks, everyone.

ChloePing 1:19:19
Thank you. Thank you. Have a good day, bye.

Finn 1:19:22
Thanks for checking out another episode of The Ether. That was Rebel Defi and friends discussing Investing the First $3,000. This episode was brought to you by Orbital command. Orbital Command’s a community validator on Terra dedicated to educating, expanding, and promoting the LUNAtic community. We appreciate their support for helping us keep this show going. For, I’m Finn. Thanks for listening.